S3E9: Feedback
In this episode, Hayley and Amy chat about the value of artist-driven feedback that centers the project goals, ways to create theatrical spaces in which people feel empowered to give and receive feedback, the importance of naming the type of feedback that’s needed, and more. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Liz Lerman: Critical response process
Stephen Sondheim: Content dictates form (explainer by our friend Musical Theatre Writer Guy)
Daring Greatly by Brené Brown
Thanks for listening!
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, and welcome to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We're your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cup of coffee and join us as we talk to people in the theatre industry about their experiences with womanhood.
Hayley: On the pod, we interview people with different gender identities, from different backgrounds, with varying levels of industry experience and professional roles.
Amy: Our goal is to build community and pool our collective wisdom to break down the barriers we continue to face.
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people! We are back with another episode of the Women & Theatre Podcast, and today Amy and I are going to have a conversation about feedback in theatrical spaces. Amy, what are common hang ups and challenges about receiving feedback for you?
Amy: I think feedback is something that's important in any space of work, and in theatre spaces it can be particularly charged, because so much of art is subjective. So feedback more often feels like it's opinion than fact. Which, like, it's always to a certain extent based on opinion, I suppose.
There can be challenges with being open to receiving feedback, particularly in relationships where it feels unsafe or an uneven distribution of power or, like, if you're in a space where there doesn't seem to be a common shared artistic vision. Like, if we don't agree on what the end goal is, then sometimes it can be hard to give and receive feedback in a way that's getting us toward that.
Hayley: Yeah, I mean, If everyone is coming in with a different angle or different point of view or different agenda, as opposed to having a community-based goal that everyone is fighting for, then you're going to have conflicts, no matter what.
Amy: Another common pitfall that I see is people not discussing ahead of time what feedback should look like in a space and setting common standards for feedback. I think particularly in the case of things like art that's subjective, it's so important for feedback to be relevant to the artist's goals or to the goals of the group.
Hayley: Yeah, I'd so agree with that. Artist-driven feedback is really the only feedback I'm interested in. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
I think another challenge that comes up a lot is that in roles in theatre, we are often so siloed from one another - like, different departments are so siloed. So if you're working in the costume shop, let's say, and you haven't been in rehearsal with the actors, there could often be different points of view about what the priorities should be. And even more so with marketing teams, [who] are very separate from the creative process, for example, a lot of the time. Or if there are producers who are coming in later in the process or haven't been with the team every day, it can create challenges with that communication.
Because again, when the values are different, when the priorities are different, when the agendas are different, it can be challenging to give feedback that feels helpful towards everyone's goal.
Amy: Yeah. And I think as a director, you're on the front lines of that, trying to manage feedback for all different departments that are involved in a show. In a lot of these rehearsal processes that are quite limited in terms of time and resources, trying to prioritize the feedback that you give and when's the best time to give it and just managing all of those personalities within that.
Hayley: For sure.
Amy: That's a hard job, let’s acknowledge.
Hayley: It is. It's a fun and challenging job. And that's why I think communication is so important. When we're talking about challenges in giving and receiving feedback, the way you're communicating and when… All of those different pieces make a really big difference in how the feedback is received, in how productive it is, and ultimately achieving the goal you're trying to achieve.
I'm a very collaborative artist. I really like to believe that everyone I work with are geniuses and experts at what they do. And also, being a director… When it comes down to it, I still have to call the shots. If it comes down to one person making a decision, then it is my job to ultimately speak to - okay, what's the decision that's best going to reflect the vision of this company, [and] also the spirit of it?
And something I'm still learning in my early career is sometimes it's actually better to make that kind of call sooner. Theatre can't always be a democracy. I am very passionate about spaces that are extremely collaborative. But at the end of the day, when there's limited time and resources, like you said, the proactivity of going, “Nope, this is what we're doing,” sometimes can actually help facilitate everyone getting on the same page quicker, more efficiently, and also with a more positive attitude at the end of the day because no one's wasting their time.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And it's worth mentioning in this conversation that a lot of the primary decision makers in theatrical spaces are white and male. And so the reality of having to make those decisions sometimes without the feedback that you would ideally have in a more luxurious time and resources framework - that can silence the voices of people who have not historically held that kind of power in theatrical spaces, like women and non-binary folks and people of color and anyone really from historically marginalized backgrounds.
Hayley: Absolutely.
Amy: How do we ensure that the mechanisms of feedback in theatre are not perpetuating existing systems of power?
Hayley: Yeah, I mean, I think my optimistic view is that if you set up a space with equitable systems from jump and with the spirit of open communication, leading with that person-first approach of, “I value you, I value your opinion, please share things as they come up, I'd like to be a part of problem solving together,” communicating those things...
I think also, asking for access needs upfront is a really big thing that I like to do before a process even begins. Like, “Can I do anything to help you do your best work?” Trying to make sure that everyone feels heard and valued. Because then, it's setting up the space from the beginning as a place where those things matter.
It's also about how you respond when things go wrong. If someone brings a challenge to you, are you consistently focused on the problem? Or are you providing solutions? When things do get stressful in theatrical spaces, time, money, energy is often limited, but I think if you can keep your cool and focus on how do we solve the problem, you're modeling for the team that you're working with - “I'm not going to freak out when things go wrong.” We're going to focus on - okay, what are we trying to achieve? What are the steps that we can take to achieve that goal? That's the intent.
My less optimistic view is that there's a lot that you can do to set up a space to be effective and to be equitable. And also, there will undoubtedly be mistakes and situations where folks who have been historically othered continue to feel that way. And the question that I then ask myself when I'm leading a space is: How am I going to take accountability, and how am I going to change my actions? If that's brought to my attention or if I learn of my own blind spots, how do I then adjust the space? What changes am I making to ensure that that doesn't continue to be the culture of the rehearsal room and the culture of the company?
Amy: Yeah, I think that's great. I like to think of feedback in two kind of buckets. There's positive feedback, which I think is underrated in theatrical spaces. When time is scarce, if things go well, we tend to be like, “Okay, that went well, on to the next.”
Hayley: Right, as opposed to naming and affirming it and saying, “I loved what you did with that, please keep going,” yeah.
Amy: And I think doing that is so important, because it brings people together as a team, it makes people feel valued, and it lays the groundwork for the kind of space where you can provide the other bucket of feedback, which is constructive feedback.
Hayley: I love your idea of the buckets. Ultimately though, if everyone's on the same page about the rubric of what it is that we're trying to achieve, right, then all feedback is just: How close are we to achieving that goal or how much further do we have to go? And what steps might we take to achieve that goal?
When I'm giving feedback, something I like to think about a lot is making sure that I'm never connecting the feedback to that person's personhood, that person's identity. It's all about what is the choice, and naming that choice, and whether that choice is en route to achieving what we're trying to achieve.
Amy: Yeah, in a lot of what you're talking about, it seems like one of the tricks to giving and receiving feedback in a constructive way is to put aside the ego. Both in terms of making sure that our feedback is focused on the thing and not the person - because I think another common trap of giving and receiving feedback is taking it personally or giving it personally, right?
Hayley: For sure, yeah.
Amy: In a way that questions the person's inherent value, which is never going to be a helpful way to move a project closer to where we want it to be.
Hayley: Absolutely not.
Amy: Yeah, so being able to put the ego aside in that way is really important so that we can talk about the thing itself.
And that's another reason why I think it's so important to be providing positive feedback and talking about when things are going well. Because if everyone feels baseline valued in the space, that lays the groundwork for a space in which we can have hard conversations about how to get the work where we want it to be.
Hayley: Yeah, absolutely.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: What makes feedback helpful for you and what makes feedback harmful for you in a writing space?
Amy: I think it's similar things always. It's leaving the ego out of it on both sides, giving and receiving feedback. It's centering the writer or the artist and their needs and their goals. I've been in several classes that have done a version or some sort of take on the Liz Lerman feedback process, which is great. It really centers the needs of the person who's sharing their work and their goals and their intentions, more specifically.
I think for writers - unlike in a rehearsal room, where it's like, we are on a time crunch, we gotta get this done, time is money - for writers, unless it's a commissioned project that's on a deadline or something that's actively in production, we usually have more time, and the process kind of moves according to the timeline that we and our collaborators are on. Which can be a little more forgiving, perhaps…
Hayley: …and also provide other challenges.
Amy: …and provide its own other challenges. Yeah, but I think one of the most helpful things I've found in feedback spaces is setting a group understanding of where this work is in process right now and what kind of feedback is helpful right now.
Hayley: Yes. That's so good.
Amy: Yeah. I mean, sharing work that's in a nascent stage - whether it's writing, whether it's performing, directing, designing - it's a really vulnerable thing. And I think it's important to acknowledge that vulnerability, and I think it's important for the person who's sharing to have an understanding of what's gonna be most helpful to them. Like, sometimes you just want to hear what's striking people about your work.
Hayley: Like, what's compelling, yeah.
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: Because sometimes all you need is: Keep going. You know?
Amy: Yeah. Exactly. Sometimes that's all you need. And sometimes you have a really specific concern about one element of it that you're not sure if it's working and that’s what you want feedback on.
Hayley: Yeah, you're like - Is this character likable in this song? Is it clear what they're fighting for?
Amy: Exactly. And sometimes you want more general feedback on the whole arc of the story or the arc of a particular theme or character in the story. And to be able to articulate that in a group is really important so that everyone in the space feels like their needs are met in giving and receiving feedback.
Because on the other side, if I'm asked to give feedback on a work but I don't know what kind of feedback they're looking for, it's harder for me to know… Like, it feels a little like tiptoeing around trying not to hurt feelings, you know?
Hayley: Yeah, for sure.
Amy: I don't know what kind of feedback would be helpful in this situation.
Hayley: Totally.
Amy: What do you think? What's been helpful and harmful for you?
Hayley: I think helpful things to think about before you go into a feedback session as a writer is like: Am I looking for micro feedback or macro feedback? What stage of development is this in? Is this a first pass? Is this a second pass? Is this something you've been working on for years? All of these things will be really helpful. I like to make a few notes before I go into a feedback session about, like - are there specific elements that I'm looking for? And then when you're under that pressure of all these people looking at you and asking you what you need, you have something to reference. That can be really helpful.
I think what you highlighted about artist-driven feedback is really the word for me. My biggest pet peeve in receiving feedback is when I have articulated what I'm interested in achieving as an artist, and that is then not the rubric that the feedback team is measuring the work against. They're measuring the work against something that's completely different.
A really good example of this is like, in musical theatre, we have a lot of different ways that music can function. To move the plot along, to have music that sits outside the action, that is like giving a vibe or a feeling. And we see that a lot more nowadays with a lot of jukebox musicals, a lot of pop music. They're not necessarily written as dramatically as classic musical theatre. And it's very straightforward, you know, this is the objective, this is what they're doing.
And a lot of times in feedback sessions, because the dramatic method of storytelling has been the way that people are educated about what is good, a lot of old school musical theatre pros will say, “That's the pinnacle, that's what you should always be trying to do.” A lot of new school people will be like, “That is one thing that you can be trying to achieve and that's awesome, but there are also a variety of other ways that you can use music in musicals and those are valid too.”
And a lot of times I'll see folks will bring in like, a pop song in a musical, essentially. It's like sitting outside the action, it's giving vibes, it's fun, it's whatever. And the team giving feedback will be trying to measure it according to beats and tactics and all these things. Those are very useful things to be talking about if that's the goal. But if the goal is something else, why are we measuring it against that rubric? It doesn't make any sense.
Amy: Right. And I think that points to another really important element of feedback to talk about, which is open-mindedness. You and I are not as interested as some people in writing musical theatre the way it's always been written. I think we and a lot of our colleagues are interested in pushing the genre forward, and we're more interested in what it could be than in what it has been in the past.
And there are certainly good and bad things about different approaches to musical theatre, whether it's more traditional or more progressive. But I would say that we land pretty firmly on the progressive side. And I've also been in spaces where theatre is judged based on some idea that the feedback givers have about what makes good musical theatre that may be completely different from the author's intention.
Hayley: And that also ties back to what you were bringing up earlier about historically underrepresented folks in musical theatre. And as we're opening the doors to more voices and more stories, I want those stories and I want those people to be heard.
Funny enough, it actually goes back to Sondheim's “Content dictates form.” We say these words a lot in musical theatre spaces, but a lot of times, it's not actually what's being practiced. If the content is not coming from the same headspace as more traditional musicals, then why are we telling folks that that is what works in terms of form? It doesn't make any sense to me. It perpetuates this white supremacist, patriarchal, heteronormative ideal in our art, which is not what we want to be seeing, obviously.
Amy: Yeah.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Hayley, will you talk a little bit about your personal struggles with feminine stakes and feedback in theatrical spaces?
Hayley: Oh, yeah. Sure, sure. Yeah.
Amy: I think it's helpful to this conversation.
Hayley: Definitely. I'm working on a piece right now that does not use your traditional book musical plot structure. It doesn't function in, like, a hero's journey type of way. And what happens a lot of the time is that the kinds of questions I get when I put a piece of work that is less traditional in front of folks who aren't used to seeing work like this, is that I get the question: “What are the stakes?” And to me…
Amy: Let's just name that that is a common question to receive as feedback when people don't know what to do with your work.
Hayley: Right, right.
Amy: Which…and it's also sometimes a really helpful question. But it's also, it can sometimes be a fallback that we default to when we don't really understand what is needed, you know?
Hayley: Yeah. So there's an idea of feminine stakes, which - all it's really saying is that the stakes of the local - meaning the scene or the moment at large - are not necessarily connected to the global stakes in the way that you're used to seeing in a traditional book musical. That's the way I've sort of defined this.
Amy: Yeah, that's a good way of describing that. Can you give an example?
Hayley: Definitely. Global stakes is like, about the stakes on which the musical rests. For example, will Harold Hill achieve his goal of conning the town into believing he is a music man, okay? That's an example of a global stake, and much of the show's action and tension rests on this goal.
In a show like Fun Home, for example, the local stakes are prioritized in a way that the global stakes are not. So the global stake, you could say, is: Will Allison find peace going through the experience of grieving her father? But it's a much more internal thing. And so a lot of the time, the stakes are more what we would call feminine stakes. The stake is resting on that dramatic moment, as opposed to this bigger idea.
Amy: It's interesting because it's a little different from how I speak or think, I guess, about feminine stakes. I'm glad we're talking about it, because I think your thinking on this has developed since we last talked about it.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: I tend to think of feminine stakes as more - I don't want to say relational because that's such a stereotype.
Hayley: But internal, right? Like interpersonal.
Amy: Yeah, internal is a better way of saying it. For example, if this interaction doesn't turn out the way the character is hoping that it will - maybe no one's going to die, but maybe it's going to destroy this relationship. Or maybe it's going to destroy this character's internal understanding of who they are, or who this other character is.
Hayley: Yeah, I think I agree with that, Amy. I think I'm trying to define it more broadly for folks, like, from a technical standpoint. Yeah, but I agree with that, too.
Amy: When I think of feminine stakes, I think about - What are stakes that people who have always had power wouldn't necessarily think of as important?
Hayley: That's a really good way to phrase it.
Amy: But to those of us who have not historically had power, these are actually very, very Important things. Like status, like relationships, like feeling valued, feeling cared for, being seen.
Hayley: Yeah, like feeling understood, feeling valued, feeling loved, feeling worthy, all those things. Yeah, being seen is a good one. And it's something that a lot of white male teachers in particular and men in positions of power will tell you - it's not a high-enough stakes thing to rest a musical structure on.
Amy: Right, because perhaps for them, it has not historically been an important thing. These are stakes that a lot of time people in positions of power have a particular blind spot for, because it's not part of their lived experience. But it is part of a lot of other people's lived experience.
Hayley: Yeah, it's frustrating to come from the perspective of wanting to create stories that speak to these particular types of stakes, and then being told over and over again that the stakes aren't high enough.
Amy: This conversation brings us to another important element of feedback, which is knowing who you want to get feedback from and curating a list if possible.
Hayley: Yeah, like who's your target audience?
Amy: I think it's in Daring Greatly, Brené Brown talks about knowing who the people are whose opinions you care about. She has a little tiny square piece of paper on which she has, like, four or five names written - and she keeps it in her wallet all the time so she can remember, “Oh, is someone giving me their opinion on my work or my life or whatever? Oh, is their name on this list? No, it's not. Okay, then I don't have to care.”
And obviously, this gets complicated in professional spaces, where sometimes we do have to care about the opinions of decision makers on a particular project or production or people who have a stake in our work. But I think as much as possible, we try to seek out and work with people who share our aesthetic values, who are making the kind of theatre that we want to make, who are creating theatrical spaces and communities in the way that we want to be in community. It's a thing that you can't always control, but when we can, I think it's important to curate the people who we are giving and receiving feedback with.
Hayley: For sure. When I put together those lists of people, I really like to have one person in there that's kind of like - I know this isn't for them, just to balance it out. Like, these are the people that I really think this is for, in demographic and age, all these things. The people that I'm really hoping to attract, the people who - okay, maybe they could get something from this.
And if this is not for this person - A) Do they understand it? B) Can they still find something to get out of it? And if the answer is yes to both those things, then oftentimes, I’ve found that those pieces have been successful in achieving a universality through specificity thing. It's really, to me, about prioritizing the audience that you want. And then how certain types of people are going to receive your work.
Amy: Absolutely. I think it's really important to have dissenting voices that don't always agree with you. I mean, I think we've seen in our world, on the macro level, what can happen when we get into these, these silenced opinions…
Hayley: Echo chambers.
Amy: Echo chambers, yes, and the horrible madness that that can lead to in the world, I think is, is still playing out on a national and global level. But yeah, definitely, it's important to prioritize your intended audience. And it comes back to, again, what your intent is as an artist.
And I also think it's important, when you have a choice in the matter, surrounding yourself with a community of people who are going to lift you up, not tear you down. And who are open to listening to your voice and valuing it and giving you the kind of feedback that you need based on what you're asking for. And to be brave and courageous and vulnerable enough to identify what you need and ask for it in spaces.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Amy, I want to ask you, what is the best piece of feedback you've ever been given?
Amy: Wow. I think some of the most helpful feedback I've ever been given has just been validation. “This element of this says this to me. If that's what you're going for, keep going. It's working.”
Hayley: I want to name what you just said, which is like, I'm going to reflect back what I'm seeing to you.
Amy: Yeah, exactly. Reflecting back. Being in spaces where I can share a piece of work and say, “This is what I'm hoping to achieve with this.” And the people in space with me can say, “Great, this is what I'm getting out of it,” which either is or is not aligned with, or is partially aligned, right, with what you're hoping to achieve.
Hayley: Yeah, that's my favorite kind of feedback too, the reflecting back feedback. One of the most helpful things you can say if you don't know specifically what it is that you're looking for - ask folks to tell you, “What do you learn about the character and the situation from watching this? Just reflect it back to me. What are you seeing? What do you know about this protagonist?” And so if they start listing out all the information that you need people to get from it, then at least from a function standpoint, you know that it's working.
Whether or not they like it, that's another thing. But at least from a functional, point A to point B standpoint, is the story clear? You can always refine the point of view and the character voice and tone, but if you're not creating a clear story, it's very important for you to know that.
Amy: Yeah, I think the more that we can get away from feedback that's about, “I like it or I don't like it, based on my personal aesthetic preferences…”
Hayley: Well, it's just not critical analysis. It's just subjective at that point, right?
Amy: Right, exactly. There is a time and a place, for sure, for prescriptive feedback, where you're telling someone, “This is exactly how you fix it.”
Hayley: I have some collaborators and friends who love prescriptive feedback.
Amy: Yeah, and there's a time and place for it where it's helpful.
Hayley: For sure.
Amy: And I think as the person sharing the work, you get to be the person who decides when the time and place for that is.
Hayley: Yeah, you are the arbiter. Yes.
Amy: Right. But, yeah, I think in general, the more we can get away from opinions and away from prescriptions and toward critical, constructive, artist-centered feedback, the more that it's helpful.
We've been talking a lot of writer-centric feedback here, but I think a lot of the same things apply to actors getting feedback on your performance. Rather than asking, “Oh, did you like how I sang that song?” You could ask, “What did you get out of this song? What did you learn about the character? What did you learn about the moment?”
Hayley: Yeah, I wish when I was performing still that that was a trick that I had had up my sleeve. Because oftentimes, you're in a situation where you're trying to translate what a director is saying or what a casting person is saying. If you don't understand a note, try asking, “Can you reflect back for me what it is that you're hearing?” Be a sleuth about it and understand what it is that they're seeing.
Amy: Right, because all of that, like we've been talking about, is focused on the work, not focused on the person. And it's focused on understanding - what is the end goal and how close or far away from it are we?
Hayley: Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Amy: And that's, I think, what the most helpful feedback does.
Hayley: Definitely.
Amy: So Hayley, how do we go about creating theatrical spaces where people feel like they are empowered to give and receive feedback in a way that's helpful?
Hayley: Yeah, it's a great question, and it's something I'm still learning every day, the more that I do what I do, but I think…
Amy: Wait, you don't have all the answers right now?
Hayley: No, I don't. At my ripe age, I do not have all the answers. (laughs) I think it's about a couple of things. I think it's about making it clear that this is a space in which everyone is valued and respected, regardless of feedback.
And that goes back to - how are people introduced in the space? People are being called by the correct name, people know each other's names, we know what pronouns to use and we're using the correct ones. There's a conversation around how things are going to go and setting expectations in a way that's helpful. Asking questions and actually wanting to know the answers. These are just examples of creating a culture and a space in which folks know their voices are valued, and then they're going to be more likely to share their opinions.
And then I think also, it's about modeling when giving feedback. Being really conscious of how you're phrasing things. Not ever giving feedback that is speaking to someone's personhood or their intentions, but rather speaking objectively about the work itself and what you're trying to get out of the work. Setting up the space and the culture in a way that feels positive and that is consensual. There's accountability in the space. And then it's about…
Amy: Following through.
Hayley: Being really conscious and intentional and following through on all those things.
Amy: Yeah, and the follow-through, I do want to highlight that. Because setting up that space is so important, and so is following through on it…
Hayley: And then also doing it.
Amy: …and living your values, and being consistent in creating and reinforcing that culture and community.
Hayley: Yeah, definitely. And I think also naming and acknowledging when things are not going as planned. “Our intention was this. We've had to adjust to do this. Is everyone okay with this?” It's a lot about checking in too, and reading the room and seeing how your people are doing.
Wrap it up for us, Amy. What do you take away from this?
Amy: What I take away from this is that it's complicated. We create work that's very subjective, and we have to work in collaboration with a lot of humans to do that. What is beautiful to me about theatre is that no one person owns a work of art. It is very much a collaboration of a million different people who all are responsible for a tiny piece that makes up this gorgeous mosaic of a theatrical work.
And I think that's beautiful and wonderful and also presents a lot of challenges of making sure that we're all working toward the same collective vision, and that we're all on board if that vision shifts and changes, as it often does over time. And so I think my takeaways are that communication is absolutely critical, centering the needs of whoever is sharing work at the moment is critical.
Hayley: Content dictates form again!
Amy: Content dictates form, yes.
Hayley: Like in every way, like in the spaces themselves too.
Amy: Yes. And feedback is one element of a much bigger conversation about creating collaborative spaces that are full of joy and creativity and that people are excited to come to, instead of collaborative spaces where people feel scared or unheard or unvalued.
Hayley: You said it. Amazing. I love it.
Amy: I love it. This has been such a joy of a collaborative conversation.
Hayley: I love it. I love it. Thanks, listeners. We'll see you again next time.
Amy: We love you, listeners! Thanks for joining us.
Hayley: Bye!
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: And Amy Andrews. If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show is written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
