S5E10: J. Harrison Ghee
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk with actor, singer, dancer, and creator J. Harrison Ghee about the transformative journey of freeing yourself to see yourself, spreading the ministry of love, connecting to your Divine Feminine, expanding the bounds of creative storytelling, and more. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Guest: J. Harrison Ghee
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Durham Performing Arts Center Rising Stars
PJ Morton - Smoke and Mirrors
New York Theatre Workshop - Saturday Church
Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil - Broadway 2026
The Shindellas - Lullaby
Trailblazers of the Week:
Dylan Weinberger
Guest Bio:
Tony and Grammy Award winner J. Harrison Ghee (they/them, all pronouns with respect) made history as the first non-binary actor to win in the Leading Individual Performance category for creating the role as Daphne/Jerry in Some Like It Hot, which also garnered them Drama Desk and Outer Critics Circle Awards.
Also on Broadway, Ghee starred as Lola in Kinky Boots, created the role of Andre Mayem in Mrs. Doubtfire, and co-starred opposite Harry Connick, Jr. as Johnny Hooker in The Sting. Ghee captured audiences as the Lady Chablis in the musical premiere of Midnight in The Garden of Good and Evil. On television, Ghee was selected to play the title role in Robyn's Story on the hit Fox anthology series Accused, directed by Billy Porter; starred as Kwame in Netflix's Raising Dion, and guest starred on HBO's High Maintenance.
A Fayetteville, North Carolina native, Ghee moved to New York City to study at the American Musical and Dramatic Academy and began their professional career working at Tokyo Disney on cruise ships and national tours. They live by the mantra: “You have to free yourself to see yourself,” with the hope of inspiring people to dream big and to chase those dreams.
An outspoken advocate for the LGBTQIA+ community, Ghee has been involved with many organizations, including Broadway Cares, GLAAD, and God's Love We Deliver, among others. Ghee hopes to create roles and conversations that reach beyond what was and into a realm of infinite possibilities.
Find J. Online:
Follow The Zora Project on Instagram
Thanks for listening!
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello beautiful people, and welcome back to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cozy beverage and join us as we talk to women and gender-expansive folks about their experiences at the intersection of womanhood and theatre.
Hayley: On the pod, we cultivate open conversations across identities and professional roles…
Amy: We look for opportunities to support one another in growing our careers…
Hayley: And we pool our collective wisdom to build the equitable theatrical spaces of the future.
(Music)
Amy: Hello!
Hayley: Hi, how are you?
Amy: I'm good. How are you?
Hayley: I’m doing well. Are you ready to jump into those Roses and Thorns?
Amy: Yeah. Let me see. My Rose for today is that it's finally turning into summer. Y'all, there is sunshine, there is heat, and…
Hayley: There are aperol spritzes! There are sunshine days in the park.
Amy: There are aperol spritzes, there are rosés… Oh my gosh. And I know that summer is a controversial season in New York City. Some people love it, some people hate it. But I will say I suffered through winter with the winter lovers. So welcome to my season of choice! I'm so happy to be here. I'm just so in love with summer in the city. It's my favorite, favorite, favorite. And we're just at the beginning of it, and it's so exciting. So that is my Rose for today. Hooray! Also, like, the literal roses that are in bloom right now… Here for it. They're so beautiful. I love it.
My Thorn today is technology. We were having some tech issues going into this episode. And you know, technology is such a wonderful tool that connects us all and enables great things like this podcast. And also, there are days and moments when technology is not our friend. And I feel like I've just been having a lot of those lately, today included. So that is my Thorn. How about you, Hayley? What's going on with you today?
Hayley: My Rose is just friend time. I love friends! I've spent a lot of time with my good pals who I haven't seen in a long time, because I've been out of the city. For those who are following my, “Where is Hayley?” journey… You know, is she in Canada? Is she in New York? Is she somewhere else?
Amy: We’re gonna make, like, a “Where’s Hayley” book, like Where’s Waldo.
Hayley: Oh, like Where's Waldo? Hell yeah. So I'm back in New York City, and I love to be back in New York City and see my friends. I got to see my dear friends Hannah and Isi yesterday and lounge in Central Park in the sunshine, and I basked. I truly basked. I'm like a dog by the window in the summertime, like I just…
Amy: Like a lizard on a rock.
Hayley: Hell yeah. Like, I'm just there and I'm basking, and so…yeah. I'm starting to feel like I'm coming home to myself again. Being in this city and the summer vibes and, like, being with my friends and my people really reminds me of who I am. And I love that. So that's my Rose.
My Thorn today, dear listeners, is bureaucracy and hoops and red tape and forms. And I don't really wanna get too deep, but bureaucracy is annoying. I just wish that, like, we could all give everyone the benefit of the doubt. And I also hate waiting. Waiting and bureaucracy. Yeah, those are my Thorns.
Amy: I feel like those Thorns are so universal, though.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: I relate hard, and I'm sure many listeners do, too.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: So insert your own personal struggle with bureaucracy and/or waiting here.
Hayley: Bureaucracy and waiting. Yeah, it's a good time. But I wanna switch gears a little bit, Amy, because we are speaking with a legend today.
Amy: Oh my gosh, I'm so excited!
Hayley: Yes. So for the listeners, we are speaking with the trailblazer themselves, J. Harrison Ghee. J. is an icon. They were the first - along with Alex Newell - were the first openly non-binary person to win a Tony Award.
Amy: What a dream.
Hayley: I'm so excited to talk to J. about how they show up as their full self. Because I feel like they're just an inspiration to so many people, and I know they are to me. So I love that. And it's - what a great way to celebrate Pride month also!
Amy: Oh my gosh.
Hayley: It's June at the time of recording. By the time we release this, it'll probably be July. But you know what? If you're fun, it's always Pride month.
Amy: Hey, extended Pride. Extended Pride. I'm here for it.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: Yeah, I'm so excited to talk to J., they are such an inspiration. And I feel like every time I see them show up in public spaces - like not in performance, but like, as themselves - they just always have gems of wisdom to share and just seem like such a delightful, real, authentic human being showing up in the world the best they can. And that's certainly how I aspire to live my life. And I'm excited to learn more about them and hear all about it.
Hayley: Me too.
Amy: So shall we dive in?
Hayley: Let's dive in!
(Musical transition)
Amy: In today's episode, we are speaking with Tony and Grammy Award winner, J. Harrison Ghee. J. made history as the first non-binary actor to win in the Leading Individual Performance category for creating the role as Daphne/Jerry in Some Like It Hot, which also garnered them Drama Desk and Outer Critics Circle Awards.
Also on Broadway, Ghee starred as Lola in Kinky Boots, created the role of Andre Mayem in Mrs. Doubtfire, and co-starred opposite Harry Connick, Jr. as Johnny Hooker in The Sting. Ghee captured audiences as the Lady Chablis in the musical premiere of Midnight in The Garden of Good and Evil. On television, Ghee was selected to play the title role in Robyn's Story on the hit Fox anthology series Accused, directed by Billy Porter; starred as Kwame in Netflix's Raising Dion, and guest starred on HBO's High Maintenance.
A Fayetteville, North Carolina native, Ghee moved to New York City to study at the American Musical and Dramatic Academy and began their professional career working at Tokyo Disney on cruise ships and national tours. They live by the mantra: “You have to free yourself to see yourself,” with the hope of inspiring people to dream big and to chase those dreams.
An outspoken advocate for the LGBTQIA+ community, Ghee has been involved with many organizations, including Broadway Cares, GLAAD, and God's Love We Deliver, among others. Ghee hopes to create roles and conversations that reach beyond what was and into a realm of infinite possibilities.
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people! J., welcome to Women & Theatre.
J.: Thank you for having me, Hayley. So happy to be here!
Hayley: Of course. To get us started, would you mind just sharing your pronouns and telling us about what theatrical hats you wear?
J.: I'm J. Harrison Ghee, I use all pronouns with respect, prefer they/them. I am an actor, singer, dancer, working towards expansion of all of that. I'm a creative being in all forms.
Amy: Love that! J., can you tell us - what is something, anything that is inspiring you right now?
J.: Oh, I feel like this past week has been so inspiring. Last week, I was home in North Carolina for the Durham Performing Arts Center Rising Stars Awards. And I got to sit with the high school students who were coming to New York for the Jimmy Awards and…
Hayley: Oh, so fun!
J.: I was fully sitting there crying over these children that I had no, like, attachment to, but watching their passion and their joy and their hearts on stage was just so fulfilling to me. And inspiring in every way. Yeah, I really enjoyed my time with those students.
Amy: That's so special. I love that. Awww, babies.
J.: Yeah.
Hayley: Yeah, that's wonderful. Before we get into the interview proper, J., we have a little bit of a tradition here on Women & Theatre to do a quick flash round of questions. So this is just, like, “Don't think, just speak” kind of questions.
J.: Okay. Ooh, “Don’t think, just speak.” Too many people do that in the world.
Hayley: That's true, that's true.
Amy: But this is in a fun way!
Hayley: These are fun, so hopefully we won't be getting into any… yeah, a fun way. So first question is: If you were an animal, J., what would you be?
J.: I'd probably be some kind of feline, of the feline species.
Hayley: Okay, fun.
Amy: Love that. Like, big cat? Small cat?
J.: Probably like a panther or something of that effect.
Amy: Yes, a panther! J., what is your weirdest hobby?
J.: My weirdest hobby? Oh god. Probably - I mean, it's not weird. I've also like, I've tried to normalize weird in my life.
Amy/Hayley: Yeah!
J.: Like, people are always like, “I do this weird thing…” and like, weird is positive to me.
Hayley: Yeah, weird is positive to us too.
Amy: Yes! What is your most excellent hobby?
J.: Truly just, like, walking around stores. My favorite thing to do is to go walk around Saks Fifth Avenue. It started as aspirational, of like, I literally will start at the top floor, and I'll just walk through the entire store for no reason. Like, I don't need anything. But it's like, “Oh, I can't wait for the day I can just run in here 'cause I need something or I want something.” So I'm always, I guess daydreaming. That's my weird hobby.
Hayley: I love it.
Amy: That's wonderful.
Hayley: Yeah, we could all use a little bit more daydreaming, so I love that. J., do you have a quote or a mantra that is speaking to you right now or inspiring you right now?
J.: Yeah. Every day of my life… I was thinking about it earlier today, of like, “Oh, I need to get it trademarked” - is “Free yourself to see yourself.”
Amy: Ooh.
Hayley: Ooh, love that. Really good.
J.: Yeah, it's really giving yourself the permission and the space to play and be the fullness of who you are all the time. And you know, people see me and say, “Oh, I could never wear that.” And I'm like, “'Cause you haven't freed yourself to see yourself yet.”
Amy: Yes! Free yourself to see yourself. I like it. J., what's your favorite musical?
J.: The Wiz. I can't even pretend like it's not. It was the first show I ever did, I played the Tin Man in high school. That was before I actually knew how to tap. I just spray painted an old pair of dress shoes I had and was shuffling around on stage, and my brother was like, “When did you learn to tap?” And then he saw me the opening night of Some Like It Hot and was like, “Wait, when did you learn to tap?”
Amy: That’s amazing.
Hayley: I love it. “But when did you learn to actually tap?” Yeah.
J.: But The Wiz is, like, nostalgic, it makes me turn into a big kid.
Amy: Awesome.
Hayley: Love it. J., what's your song of the moment?
J.: It switches up. But PJ Morton has this song, Smoke and Mirrors. It gets me hyped, it inspires me. 'Cause it also talks about authenticity and, like, what you've been told is right, and it's all smoke and mirrors and, like, “No. Trust yourself. You got what you need.” And it, like, when I need to bop down the street, Smoke and Mirrors gets me. Yeah.
Amy: Awesome.
Hayley: I love that.
Amy: Amazing! Well, thanks for playing along with our flash round. You survived. We're on the other side. So J., to start us off, we would love to hear about how you came to theatre and your creative work. Take us on a journey.
J.: So I grew up in North Carolina, and I say I came out of my mother singing. It's just something I've always done. I grew up singing in church. I wasn't that theatre kid who was like, “I gotta be on Broadway.” I didn't even have the scope of that until I got to high school, really. I did my first show in 10th grade, I was the Tin Man in The Wiz. And I was in show choir and marching band, and one day I was like, “Oh, I've gotta live a life and be happy and fulfilled, and I sing and dance and people respond to that. So theatre feels right. Let me go explore that.”
So I moved to New York at 18 to study theatre at the American Musical and Dramatic Academy. Did my two years there, and then went off to Tokyo Disney. That was my first professional job, I lived there for almost two years. Did cruise ships, did regional things in between all of that, and was also doing drag on the side as a, like, side hustle.
Hayley: Love it.
J.: And it was a secret for a while. Like, I had separate pages. Growing up in North Carolina, my father was a pastor, and I grew up in church. And I didn't see the future that I get to live in now, of freedom and truth and authenticity.
And then Kinky Boots was the show that changed my life. I got to swing and be the assistant dance captain for that show and literally see it from every angle. And then the rest is herstory, as they say.
Hayley: Yeah. Wow.
Amy: Fabulous.
Hayley: I just got goosebumps with you sharing that journey of, like, feeling the need to hide and then now… You free yourself to see yourself, right? That transformation is so huge. I wanna know more about what you're working on creatively at the moment. Could you share with our listeners what your current projects are? What are you doing?
J.: Yeah, I'm currently working with New York Theatre Workshop. We're working on a project called Saturday Church, which I'm extremely excited about. Just did a 29-hour reading of it to hear it out loud and feel it. And I've been working with the project for a couple years now, and it's gonna be shenanigans, tomfoolery, but also so much heart. It's a queer coming-of-age story. It's based on the screenplay. Bryson Battle is in it, and Joaquina Kalukango. And we're, like, so excited to share it with people. We did the reading, and we were all looking at each other like, “Oh God, we didn't expect to be a mess in here today.” And this is my first time working at New York Theatre Workshop, and everyone there is so incredibly supportive and wonderful and… Yeah, it's just a wonderful incubator for the beauty we've got coming in that.
And then beyond that, also, I'm a part of Midnight in The Garden of Good and Evil. We did our out-of-town in Chicago at the Goodman. And that music by Jason Robert Brown, directed by Rob Ashford, choreographed by Tanya Birl, written by Taylor Mac. I keep calling it this gumbo of incredible humans. And that is another one with so much personality and heart, and another thing I'm really excited to share with people.
Amy: Yay! Those both sound incredible. J., I wanna ask you, do you have a creative mission? I feel like you do… That kind of drives your creative work as a whole?
J.: Yeah, talk about another mantra I live by. I do everything in life with intention and purpose, but most importantly with love. When I found my agents, they asked me, you know, what did I want to do? And I said, “I just want to take over the world with love.” That is truly my end all, be all ultimate goal. And just share that ministry and that message. And that is what draws me to my projects, what really connects me to my work, and knowing that there's purpose in what I do and not just… It's fun, and people think it's frivolous, but I know there's so much more to it.
Amy: Yes. More love in the world.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Well, we were just talking about that big transformation that you had, J., and I'm just curious, as it relates to gender, talking about womanhood, does womanhood fit into your identity? And if so, how, and how does that relate to your theatrical work?
J.: Oh, it was something I was pondering on yesterday about the Divine Feminine and how that is the foundation of my work and who I am. It is that thing about - I always check in with my Divine Feminine and lead from there. Women have always played a part in my life of who I am, how I'm nurtured, and that's not something I have taken lightly.
Literally… I was home in North Carolina last weekend. I was in my hometown, because my hometown gave me the key to the city. And one of the first people I saw was my elementary school principal, Jane Barnes. And she was one of the first humans and women in my life to see me, to nurture me, and love me. And she was like, “Oh, I wouldn't have missed this.” And she's just followed me my entire life.
And my connection to women has always been so strong. As a child, I knew part of my purpose was to make women happy. And at the time, I didn't know what that meant. But as I've come into my own, I'm like, oh, it is such a driving force in my life to empower women, to stand behind them, to support, to fight for the rights of, to really hold space with and for.
And so, it is a thing I also try to encourage in my male-presenting friends of like, “Hey, let her speak to you. Whoever she is in your life, in you, like, don't ignore who she is. Because that is where your power, your grace, your strength, really lies.” So it is something I protect and hold dear. It's what made me explore drag, which has led me to my fullness as a human being. That used to be my excuse to be glamorous and to play in that area. And again, I tried to keep everything so binary and separate. I didn't want people to pigeonhole me as “just a drag queen”. I was like, no, I'm so much more than that.
And it's been wonderful to step into the fullness of who I am and to own that. I love to give people permission to use all pronouns with me. I am a powerful being that encompasses so much. And I don't expect everyone to know what that is every day, and I give you permission, but I love to watch them struggle. We make femininity be such a… We try to compartmentalize everything in the world and put a label on it and make it make sense. And you're like, no, there's a spectrum to that.
And you can't deny it because it doesn't make sense to you. It doesn't have to make sense to you. You'll never understand the fullness of humanity, but just be open to the possibility of what exists.
Amy: Yeah, I love that.
Hayley: Yeah. Beautifully said.
Amy: Can you talk a little bit more about the Divine Feminine and how it plays out in your life?
J.: It's the power in my softness, in my grace, in my beauty. And normalizing that there's nothing weak about any part of that. There is the strength and there is the equalizer of humanity in my Divine Feminine, in being able to go outside of myself to understand others. It is the ability to trust my intuition and my instincts and my feelings. And that is something that we're so - we're taught to suppress and be like, “No, no, no. You've gotta, like, be strong and hold it together.” And I'm not a machine. I don't operate on one wavelength. There's so much that, like, swirls in me, and I have to use every bit of that to show up every day.
Even recently, I've noticed I allow myself more space in the street to be like, “Oh yeah, pay attention to even how you're walking.” I remember at my brother's wedding, I was his best man, and of course, you know, wearing a tuxedo to the wedding. And I was standing outside with my brother waiting to go in, and my uncle was like, “Hey, don't stand like that. That's how women stand.” Because I wasn't standing, like, [on] two feet. Really? You're worried about the way I'm standing right now?
Another uncle of mine said to me one time, “Never shave your facial hair. That's your manhood.”
Hayley: Oh, geez.
Amy: That’s your manhood?
J.: What does that mean?
Hayley: Yeah. What does that mean?
J.: But as I came into my own, I understood what he meant, of like, I am treated differently when I have facial hair. People see me differently, they respond to me differently. I love to confuse people, and so I'll have makeup and facial hair, and people are like… And my friends are like, “It's my favorite look on you. It's the best. You're so, like…
Amy: I do love that look, honestly.
J.: It's beat, but like, yeah! Because we're taught - again, masculinity looks a certain way and femininity looks a certain way. And I'm like, but I exist and I love all of this. And no, I'm showing the possibility of what there is. So like, here, you're welcome.
Amy: And thank you. I love that about how you present as a person in public spaces. I think it's great to see such a shining example of what that spectrum can look like. Right? It's awesome.
J.: Thanks.
Amy: Yeah, thank you.
Hayley: So J., speaking about that transformation for you from hiding to feeling so free and taking up space in all of the fullness of who you are, what opened the door for you? What was that change that occurred and how?
J.: It goes back to, again, the availability of going beyond what was told was right and wrong. And getting back to trusting my instincts. Kinky Boots, like I said, was a vehicle to incubate that expansion. My dad said to me when I got that job, he was like, “Oh, it's fun. You get to imitate drag queens. Just don't bring any wigs home.” At the time, I was already doing drag secretly, and I was like, “Ah, the time has come for me to tell you the truth.”
Hayley: And now is the time. The time is here.
Amy: Yeah.
J.: And it was! But it was so empowering to get to sit down to show my father. I'm like, no, I have many gifts, talents, and abilities. And like, I style myself. I do my own hair, I do my own makeup. I am creating these looks. I am doing these mixes. I'm intentionally building this art to be effective in the world. And if you have taught me to be the spiritual, powerful being I am, this is the activation of that. This is literally my ministry. Nobody does it like me in this form and in this way. So I have to trust what God gave me and to be able to continually do that and effectively do that.
Because even before that, I was, you know, hosting my own drag shows, and people would come up to me after and have these therapy moments where they were like, “I needed this specific number you did” or “You said something that really spoke to my heart.” And they would break down to me in these bars and clubs, because they had been so affected. And I was like, oh, there is strength in this. There’s power in this, there's healing in this.
And there's nothing I love more than to give people the permission to be soft and to find those parts of themselves. When my friends ask me to do their makeup and put them in drag, I always say, “Give them 5–10 minutes once it's done, and she always shows up, whoever she is.” And it's wonderful to watch people give into the freedom of that, the joy of it. And really, they find themselves expanded beyond their own understanding.
You have access to this all the time. And that's the thing RuPaul is trying to teach everyone through the show. These people create these personas. But you have access to that, in and out of that. And it's not limited to just when it's on stage, it's like, oh, no, no, no, no. Calm the self-sabotage, overcome that, and really activate the fullness of who you are at all times.
Kinky Boots took up five years of my life. And like I said, that was therapy for me. I got on stage and had, like, full breakdowns. But it was necessary to really shed the layers of what had been taught to me and to see how that affected people literally around the world.
Hayley: Yeah, absolutely.
(Musical transition)
Amy: You're such a role model for so many people who are hidden, who are not able to access their full selves. I think you really do shine a beautiful light to help people feel the freedom to step more fully into who they are. So I'd love to hear from you, like, what is that like for you? How does that work in your life?
J.: It, at times, has been overwhelming, because… It's funny, as outgoing and as much of a people person as I am, I am such a, like, introvert. And I love my me time. And so I've had to adjust, but the reality of people truly recognizing you on the streets of New York is like, “Oh, wait. Ah!” And just being able to receive the love - which, you would think, is an easy thing, to just receive the love. But I give it so freely and do it, but for whatever reason, receiving it - even from my people - is like, “Oh, just let it happen. Let it wash over you. Like, just take it.”
Hayley: It's hard to take a compliment, J. It can be hard.
Amy: Totally.
J.: Yeah, because I didn't set out to do that. I didn't set out for the adoration. I set out to affect, to move people, to inspire, to encourage. And the intention is, like, I pass that energy on to you to take into your life and into the world. I didn't need it back, but thank you.
And it's humbling, because it is like, oh wow, no. I achieved that goal. That dream has now come true. Like, going back to North Carolina to speak to those students was a dream come true in a way that I could not have painted the picture for you. I left North Carolina to show people from North Carolina: You can go out here and be great and from North Carolina.
And that was reflected to me from these students. Literally, Josiah Jennings won Best Actor for Rising Stars, and he’s a young Black man. And he said to me, “It's amazing to see you as a Black person winning a Tony Award and, like, being successful from this place. I can't wait to join you one day.”
Hayley/Amy: Oh!
J.: I was like, “I can't wait for the moment to happen!”
Hayley/Amy: Yeah!
Amy: Oh my gosh. I just got chills.
Hayley: Me too.
Amy: I just got a vision of one day, like, you presenting at the Tonys and presenting this grown child with a Tony Award. Can you even imagine?
J.: I can now, like, I can see it now. And it is, it's like, again, it's why I watched him win, and he couldn't stop crying that night. And I was crying with him. Dream it, be it, it's possible.
Hayley: Oh, yes!
J.: Like, literally sitting there being it, I was like, “Yes!”
Amy: Oh my gosh.
J.: Yeah, so like, I can’t wait to have the opportunity to work with him and to celebrate him and to, like, cheer him on. And so many others. You know, Some Like It Hot was a whirlwind of a season where so many people - queer, straight, like the spectrum of humans - reflected back to me how they learned from that and how they had hope from that and really grew from their experience in seeing that show.
Hayley: It was such a huge moment for that kind of representation to be happening in the mainstream commercial space.
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: You're such an inspiration, J. So I have a question for you, which is: If you could make one change to the theatre industry, what would it be?
J.: Well, no, it's like, I am actively trying to be that change.
Hayley/Amy: Yeah!
J.: Like, yeah, Some Like It Hot, that role.
Hayley: Yes, definitely.
J.: And then, even moving forward, you know, getting the opportunity to play Lady Chablis in Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. It's amazing how limiting we are as a creative industry. We are imaginative, creative beings, and yet we limit what and how we tell stories. And it's like, no, we can really take chances and make risks. If a human is capable of telling a story, and it's still authentic and still true and still effective, let's do it.
Getting the opportunity to play Velma Kelly at the Muny was something I never imagined happening. Chicago, that movie musical? Like, first of all, it's like one of the best ever made.
Hayley/Amy: Yeah!
J.: And I watched it incessantly in high school. I think, truly, that was a turning point for me too, of like, “Oh, right, that's a job. People do this and, like, can be really good at it.” And to get to play Velma was like, wow. And to get two chances at it, 'cause our first chance, we got shut down because of COVID. So then I really went back with, like, a new energy of like, “Oh, we're here now, we're really doing it.”
Hayley: Yeah, I'm sure that's, like, a new appreciation, or not taking any moment for granted, you know, to be able to step into that. Yeah.
J.: Yeah, truly. And so yeah, I want us to expand how we see the world. We are culture shapers. We shape the times, and we comment on the times as artists. And so we really have the power to effectively show humanity. And so like yeah, I'm aiming to continue to push the bounds of how we tell stories and what stories we tell.
Amy: I love that. That’s so good.
Hayley: Awesome.
Amy: Yay! Amazing.
(Musical transition)
Amy: J., because you are an inspiration for so many people, I'd love to hear about people who have inspired you. How has mentorship played a role in your life, and are there particular mentors that you want to speak to?
J.: Ooh, that's a whole other journey in itself that I'm in awe of. Because again, I moved to New York and I was like, “I don't know, let's try this out.” And I got to New York and found Billy Porter's At the Corner of Broadway and Soul album and was like, “Oh, there's a human in this industry that I can look up to and, like, follow whatever they do. It's like, great, I'll just look to that human.” And to now be friends with Billy and to have worked with Billy and be directed by him and, like, really have a relationship - but in the most beautiful way, because also, Billy has that same mentality of like, “Okay, listen, I may be the first, but I cannot be the only.”
Amy: Yes!
J.: And he really is actively always reaching back to be like, “Nope, come here. I've got an opportunity. Come join me here.” Or “I can't do it, but like, here, pass that off to J.” And it means so much to have his love, his support. And so Billy has been a major mentor in that way.
Tanya Birl now is a different connection that I'm so grateful for. Not just getting to create the show together, but to create culture together. To like, really spend time outside of the rehearsal room, outside of the theatre with her, to cultivate community and spiritual connection and to support the fullness of a human in a way. It's wonderful to have people like her, like Whitney White, who's directing Saturday Church, to watch those beautiful women lead a room with grace, consideration, with such intention, with such passion, with such heart. I can't help but celebrate and elevate the women of my life who just, like, inspire me at every turn.
Amy: Amazing,
Hayley: Beautiful. J., do you have a piece of advice that you would give to up-and-coming performers or perhaps to your younger self? Something to inspire them as they keep going along the way.
J.: The best advice I've ever received, that I always try to pass along, is just: Be the person people desire to have in the room, which is, in turn, just being yourself. People want you to “you” all over the place in the room.
I got that advice from Harry Connick, Jr. We were doing a show at the Paper Mill Playhouse. And I was joking with him during tech, and I was like, “Ugh, I wish I could be a diva.” I don't understand people who go out of their way to make people's job hard. It just - it doesn't make sense to me to be that kind of human.
And he said to me, he was like, “Listen, I have an ego. You have an ego. We all have egos, but our egos tell us that we want people to want to work with us. So why would we be those people?”
So it's like, yeah, no, show up and be the most authentic, grounded you you could be in any room. And take what comes at you with grace, trust that they want you in the room because you provide something special. The inner saboteur is gonna be like, “Oh, they're criticizing me, or they don't like me.” They brought you in the room because they wanted you here. Trust it.
Amy: That's great advice.
Hayley: Absolutely. I wanted to ask you, J., about: How do you balance your creative career with the rest of your life? There's such a grind and hustle culture and sometimes glorification of burnout in this industry. And I'm just curious about how you manage the pressure of it and, like, all of the different things that you're spinning, and get to take care of yourself. How do you go about that?
J.: It's an everyday… That's an everyday journey, truly.
Hayley: Yeah.
J.: And this has been a season of me really getting to reformulate that foundation, because thankfully, “Booked, busy, and blessed.” I had been doing eight shows a week. Then you come out of that and you feel like you’ve been shot out of a slingshot. Who am I? What do I like outside of going to a theatre and sitting in a dark theatre? You're like, “Vitamin D?? I don't know what that is!”
Amy: Too bright!
Hayley: Like, I need, I need three pairs of sunglasses, like, protect me!
J.: I'm refinding what that is. And one of the things that has helped me stay consistent in all of that, in it and out of it, is my meditation practice. I have a physical altar I go to first thing every morning. The first active thing I do out of bed is go to my altar and check in, be here in the now, and remind yourself of, like, why you're here. I have friends in this girl group called The Shindellas, and they have a song called The Lullaby, and I repeat these lyrics to myself every morning: “I am what God made, beautiful and brave. Every fiber of me is perfectly lovely. I will be myself today.”
Amy: That’s the best! I’m gonna start doing that in the morning too.
Hayley: I love that. What a beautiful way to start your day.
Amy: Yeah.
J.: Like, if I don't do anything else today, I remind myself: “Nope. Just how you are is enough. You're good. Now take on whatever is thrown at you, and just… You got it.”
Amy: Yeah.
J.: In anything in life, I try not to get ahead of myself or anything. If I can just show up, be present, tell the truth, and not be attached to the outcome, that's how we're gonna handle life.
Amy: I love that.
Hayley: Yeah. Beautiful for life and for theatre.
Amy: All of that, yeah.
Hayley: It's a great way to show up, for sure.
Amy: I love that you have that practice every day to ground yourself as you prepare for the day. As you're going throughout your day, when things get hard, when you're in a tough situation, how do you tap into reminding yourself to ground yourself and to be who you are? What are your tools for that?
J.: I will literally stop, put my hand on my chest, and breathe in a moment of like, “Ooh, uncertainty. Let me check in. Remind… Okay, you're here. What is your intuition? Check in with her. What is she saying? Who is she? How do we respond in the moment?” And then music always grounds me too. Oftentimes, if I've got headphones on, it's not just for like, “Don't talk to me,” it really is, like, I'm bopping and grounding to something to, like, get me together.
And just having conversations with myself out loud during the day, too. I will catch myself doing things and I'll be like, “Hey, why are you doing that? Where is that coming from?” And really stopping to, like, take stock of what's going on. I am such an observant person of others and myself, and I have to really have conversations that are uncomfortable all the time with myself and others.
You talk about the hustle culture of New York. You see people and you're like, “Oh, let's get together and do a coffee,” and like, “Oh, I’d love to hang out and do the things.” And I just can't, I don't have the capacity for that. And I don't lie to people. So people will come and do that and say, “Oh, it's good to see you. Let's get together.” And I'll be like, “It was nice to see you. Wish you the best.” My friends know I will set a boundary. Yeah, I may be available on the calendar, but is my spirit available today?
Hayley: “Is my spirit available today?” is a wonderful question to ask ourselves. And that goes hand in hand with that authenticity that you're talking about. Like, how can you be fully authentic and show up as your full self if you don't want to be somewhere?
J.: Yeah, and knowing where your superpowers lie. I know that my superpower is safety. I carry safety with me, and people find themselves sharing with me in a way… I really do have that effect on people. It’s okay. You’re safe.
Amy: Yeah, and like you were talking about, spreading the ministry of love. If love is, you know, allowing people, giving people space to be their authentic selves, then like, If you don't want to be in a space, then the people don't want you to be there if you don't wanna be there, right?
J.: Yeah, yeah.
Amy: Like, I know when I'm curating a space, I want people there who are like, “Yes!” So yeah, I hear that. Boundaries and love.
J.: Boundaries and love. Okay, that’ll be the title of my album.
Amy: Yes!
J.: All right, I’ll give you your credit.
Amy: Oh, thank you.
Hayley: Amazing. All right, well, we wanna be respectful of your time, J.. Before we go, I would love to ask you: What are you most proud of in your life and in your work so far?
J.: I am proud to be the human I’ve always dreamed of being. We try to picture ourselves at like, 5 years old, you’re like, “Oh, what will I be like at 30 and 40? And who am I?” Oh no. I’m still connected to that little person who just wanted to be loved, who wanted to share light, and it’s wonderful to be received and celebrated for that. It’s a privilege. To get to be Black Queer Joy today in the world is not something I take lightly. And so to get to live that ministry, to be that ministry, is truly what I am most proud of and excited to expand and share more of.
Amy: Yes! Well, we can’t wait to see how it continues to expand and grow as you just step more and more into who you are every day. I think it's so wonderful. So thank you so much for being with us today, J. It was so special and wonderful to speak with you.
Hayley: Yes. Thank you. Very inspiring.
J.: Thank you for having me. Thank you for taking the chance to spend time with me and chat. It means the world and I’m eternally grateful, so thank you for having me.
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Hayley: Wow, that was such an incredible interview. I am so grateful we got to speak with J. today.
Amy: Me too!
Hayley: What a wealth of wisdom and knowledge and divine, like, everything. Like, just so, so great.
Amy: What a glorious human being.
Hayley: Glorious human.
Amy: Like, what a wonderful way to be a person in the world, right?
Hayley: Mm-hmm. Yeah. So what are your big takeaways from this interview, Amy? What's sitting with you?
Amy: Hmm. Free yourself to see yourself, right? That's awesome. I love that very much. I love the ministry of love. That’s so special. I was thinking a lot, as J. was talking about their family and their dad being a pastor, I was like, yeah, I see that. Like, I see that energy coming from you, that pastor energy, and put toward such a beautiful open, needed ministry in the world. I feel like J. is a bit of a magical human being, and we need more magical human beings in the world.
Hayley: Yeah. It's so inspiring to talk to them. I love it, Yeah. I think for me, that, like, am I spiritually available? Just because the calendar is open doesn't mean I'm available. As a girlie who has struggled with boundaries historically, I think that's such a beautiful question to ask yourself and a loving question to ask yourself.
As somebody who feels a lot of pressure to show up even when I'm not feeling my best, knowing that I will be more authentic and I will be better received by others and be able to show up better for others if I'm doing that from a place of authenticity and from a genuine desire. That's a beautiful thought, and I think that I'm going to take that and keep trying to apply that to my life, so I love that.
Amy: Absolutely. Yeah, the idea of authenticity. During the interview, I kept thinking about like authenticity as a journey and how it's the journey, not the destination, right? And how we have the opportunity to step more fully into ourselves every day. And that's so exciting, right?
Hayley: Totally.
Amy: Like, who knows what I’ll be… Like, I think about little J. growing up in North Carolina and being in the shoes of this student that they met last weekend, and like, not even being able to envision the bright future in front of yourself. Like, who knows where I will be, where you will be, 10 years from now, 20 years from now? It's so exciting to think about the possibilities of what can happen if we step more authentically into ourselves every day. So cool.
Hayley: Yeah. What I really got also from J. is their intentionality around that, the way that they're checking in with themselves about that and, you know, “Why did I say that?” or “Why did I respond that way or feel that way?” I think that's a big piece of showing up authentically, also, is asking yourself where you're coming from, you know, taking the time to do that.
Amy: Yeah. Giving yourself the space and being in tune with your body enough to recognize when you're feeling a little off kilter, and take a moment, check in, take a breath, be like, “What's going on?”
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: Work it out for yourself.
Hayley: Love it.
Amy: What a good interview.
Hayley: So good. So much, so much wisdom. So much in there. So Amy, do you have a Trailblazer of the Week to share with us?
Amy: I do, yeah. My Trailblazer of the Week… As we are recording this interview, listeners, it is the beginning of Pride Month.
Hayley: Hell yeah.
Amy: Happy Pride, listeners!
Hayley: Shout out to our girls and gays and theys.
Amy: Shout out to all of 'em. So yeah, I feel like I wanna go back in my life today… I am so lucky to live my life in a world that is full of people who are wonderfully queer and delightfully non-binary and just a beautiful, beautiful spectrum of gender and sexuality and all of the things. I feel so, so lucky to have all these wonderful human beings in my life.
I wanna go back in time and give a shout out to Dylan Weinberger. When I first moved to New York and I was working in sex education, Dylan was the person who trained me on how to talk about and think about gender and sexuality, like, on a spectrum. And this was, like, long ago in the olden days, when the gender spectrum in particular was not nearly as mainstream as it is now. I was really lucky to happen upon this community of people who kind of took me by the hand as a little baby, cis, straight white girl and like, educated me, and gave me the gift of knowledge and of understanding and of language, so that I could grow up into a big cis straight white girl who can live her life with a beautiful, beautiful spectrum of community all around me.
I'm so grateful for that initial education that I received and the care and the respect with which it was given. So I wanna shout out Dylan today. You are one of my forever Trailblazers, and I appreciate you. Yay!
Hayley: That's cute. I like that.
Amy: Thanks! Hayley, who is your Trailblazer of the Week?
Hayley: My Trailblazer of the Week is Autumn Angelettie. She is a director here in New York City, a beautiful human being who is creating lots of really exciting work. And she's currently the Associate Director on John Proctor is the Villain on Broadway. And she also was just the recipient of the Barbara Whitman Award for early-career directors that are on the brink of breaking it big, is basically how it's described. I was lucky enough to have her direct a reading of a piece of mine, and I just think she's really inspiring. And she's a rocket ship for me right now in my life. So shout out to Autumn.
And like Amy said, it's Pride month. So happy Pride month. Go and hug your queer friends and show up and be a Trailblazer yourself. How's that?
Amy: Absolutely. There’s your task, listeners.
Hayley: And smooch, smooch some people, if you feel like it.
Amy: Smooch the people you love. Or don’t. Express your love.
Hayley: If that's how you wanna express yourself, smooch away.
Amy: Spread love in the world. Spread the ministry of love.
Hayley: I love it.
Amy: Amazing. Have a wonderful Pride month, listeners, and a wonderful day.
Hayley: Oh, we forgot to hype each other up!
Amy: Oh. Duh.
Hayley: I went to Pride month and smooching, I don't know.
Amy: Cool, cool, cool. I wanna hype you up today, Hayley…
Hayley: Thank you.
Amy: …because I came into this call with a bit of stress and anxiety going on, which is not my usual role in this relationship.
Hayley: Amy is less neurospicy than me.
Amy: That's a way to put it, yeah. But anyway, I wanna hype you up today, Hayley, because you really stepped up to the moment and took care of me and encouraged me to take care of myself. And I was able to work through the stuff that was coming up for me, and we were able to have a fabulous interview. So I really appreciate you helping remind me of who I am in that moment and modeling for me the care that I needed. So thank you. You rock.
Hayley: Aww, that's really nice. I do my best. I wanna hype you up, because I feel like you really rallied. You were having a moment and you were able to really step up and let it go and be present in the interview. I think you did a fabulous job here today…
Amy: Oh, thanks.
Hayley: …and brought some sunshine and light back to yourself and those around you. So I think that that's really, really admirable. I'm proud of you.
Amy: Thank you. Awww, I’m proud of us! Yay!
Hayley: I'm proud of us too.
Amy: And I'm proud of you too, listeners. You're doing great work.
Hayley: Yes. Happy Pride month.
Amy: Happy Pride!
Hayley: Go smooch. Or don't. Express your love.
Amy: Love the people you love. Tell them you love them.
Hayley: Yeah. Well, we love you.
Amy: We do.
Hayley/Amy: Okay. Bye!
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Amy: All right, listeners, so that's a wrap on Season 5 of the Women & Theatre Podcast. Go team!
Hayley: Go team! We really hope you enjoyed this season. We had a great time, we hope you had a great time. Thanks for staying on board with us through Part 1 and Part 2 of the season. Follow us on social or sign up for our email newsletter to find out what's next for Women & Theatre. We'll be in touch with exciting updates coming soon.
Amy: Absolutely. And if you just can't get enough of Women & Theatre and wanna see more of us next week, please join us on Tuesday, July 22nd at 11:00 AM, we'll be having our Virtual Co-Working. You're all welcome to pop in the Zoom room and get some stuff done with us. We'll have more content coming your way soon, and we'll see you real soon.
Hayley: Love you!
Amy: Thanks for being part of this project! We love you!
Hayley/Amy: Bye!
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews! If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show was written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
