S4E5: Rachel Walker Mason
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk with songwriter and musical theatre writer Rachel Walker Mason about bravely making the things you dream of, leaning into authenticity and speaking aloud the things that often remain silent, women supporting women, and more. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Guest: Rachel Walker Mason
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Follow The Circle on social media
Listen to “Drown Without Water”
Guest Bio:
Rachel Walker Mason (she/her) is a GRAMMY voting member, the recipient of a prestigious British Citizen Award for contribution to the arts, and was named “a songwriting expert” by BBC Radio Four’s Today Programme. The writer of new British musical The Circle and winner of the Stiles and Drewe Best New Song Prize 2023, Rachel is currently writing songs with Grammy, Emmy and Ivor Novello award winners, The Voice UK and American Idol alumni, and Oscar nominees. Rachel is also a mentor for The GRAMMYs, Help Musicians, and the Ivor Novello Academy. She is also a featured artist for Columbia University’s Songcraft Anthology and an executive member of The Songwriters Hall of Fame.
Named a Woman Of The Year 2020, the only British musician to be inducted into the Indie Music Hall Of Fame, and hailed “an inspiration” by Prince Harry, Rachel is the youngest person to be made a Fellow of the London College of Music by Professional Achievement and is one of the British representatives for the World Choir Council. As a well-respected music industry judge, Rachel has been on the judging panels for Intercontinental Music Awards, The British Short Film Awards, Sky TV’s Sing: Ultimate A Cappella, The UK Songwriting Contest and many others. Rachel has written for hundreds of artists, including Jamie Lawson, The Puppini Sisters, Leslie Satcher (Willie Nelson, Jason Aldean, Kellie Pickler, Blake Shelton, Sheryl Crow, Bonnie Raitt, Martina McBride, Ariana Grande, Lee Ann Womack), Karl Morgan (Sam Ryder, Olly Murs), Mary Leay (Becky Hill, Cher), Luke Jackson (Amy Wadge), Gregor Philp (Deacon Blue), Luke Concannon (Nizlopi, Ed Sheeran), and Lloyd Hinshelwood (Mabel, Fleur East, Izzy Bizu).
Find Rachel Online:
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello beautiful people, and welcome back to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cozy beverage and join us as we talk to women and gender-expansive folks about their experiences at the intersection of womanhood and theatre.
Hayley: On the pod, we cultivate open conversations across identities and professional roles…
Amy: We look for opportunities to support one another in growing our careers…
Hayley: And we pool our collective wisdom to build the equitable theatrical spaces of the future.
(Music)
Hayley: Amy, how are you?
Amy: Hello! I'm happy to be here with you, that's how I am. I'm doing good. I'm in the middle of a busy week as per usual, but I'm rocking it out. How are you doing?
Hayley: Yeah, wow. It's been busy for me too. Last week on Sunday, my collaborator, Canaan J. Harris, he had a cabaret of all of his work, and it was fabulous, but it's just been a lot going on between that and just everything going on with my writing. And my brain is a little bit mushy right now, to be honest.
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: Happy to be here though!
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Let's talk some roses and thorns, yeah?
Hayley: So, my rose actually hasn't happened yet. My rose is that tomorrow is my dear friend Addie's birthday, and we are, for her birthday, doing the most theatre kid thing ever, which is a living room sing-through of Seussical, and I'm getting to reprise my role as Gertrude McFuzz.
Amy: Oh my gosh! That’s my dream role.
Hayley: Yes, and Julia, one of my best friends, is playing Maisie. Yeah, it's, it's awesome. If you know me in real life, you know that performing at this point in my life situation is my worst nightmare. However, in the context of a living room where I know the full score and I'm hanging with all the people and it's fun and it's just like no stakes at all, I love it. So like, I'm so excited for that.
Amy: It’s a totally different vibe, a living room sing-through, and I love that it's a trend. I got to play Little Red at a friend's birthday party sing-through of Into the Woods recently, and it was super duper fun!
Hayley: So fun! Yeah. So my rose is forthcoming tomorrow. So happy birthday, Addie!
My thorn is dealing with some individuals who really see theatre making as like, an individual sport, even though it's very clearly a team sport. It's not really a sport at all, listeners… (laughter) but, you know, it’s just my metaphor.
Amy: It's a well crafted metaphor, is what it is.
Hayley: Thank you.
Amy: You must be a writer.
Hayley: I must be. No, but I just… I find it frustrating sometimes to work with people, both in theatre and otherwise, who can't understand that their actions have an impact on everybody in the space and it's not just all about them, and choose to act very selfishly and then refuse to take accountability for their actions.
For me personally, trying to deal with that and remain true to myself and my values and keep my composure is like… possible, but challenging. And I just, I'm kind of drained from it. This is why… PSA: Work with people you like.
Amy: Yes, love that. It's a good takeaway.
Hayley: Yeah. What about you, Amy? Roses and thorns this week.
Amy: Yeah, roses and thorns, roses and thorns. My rose is also yet to come, but I'm super excited about it. I am taking a little jaunt down to Baltimore coming up soon to visit one of my best, favoritest people in the whole universe, Mr. Stephen Berger…
Hayley: If you're listening, shout out to Stephen!
Amy: …who would be just mortified to have his name shouted out on a podcast, and that brings me joy. I love Stephen, I want to shout him out. He is not a woman in theatre, but he is a man in medicine, and he is making things happen. (laughter) He's making things happen.
Hayley: You know what? We need people in medicine.
Amy: We do! We do! And he's an amazing doctor and a PhD, and he is making things happen on his neurology fellowship, and I'm so freaking proud of him. And I'm so excited to spend time with him because I miss him so much.
Hayley: Friends are the best.
Amy: So that's my rose. Besties are the best, right? Like, just, mmm, those people who you go through life with.
Hayley: Hold your people tight.
Amy: Yeah, yeah. So that's definitely my rose. My thorn this week is arts and crafts. Let me tell you, listeners…
Hayley: What? I love crafting. Why are you coming for crafting?
Amy: I can make beautiful things with words. I can make beautiful things with music. I can sometimes make beautiful things with dance. Like, sometimes.
Hayley: Occasionally. From time to time.
Amy: Arts and crafts, handiwork, not my jam. My creativity just doesn't work in that way. I can like, fake it, but it's not my favorite way to express my creativity. And let me tell you that this week, I was tasked - with very little notice - with leading an arts and crafts project for a room of small children.
Hayley: Delightful.
Amy: And the goal was to create a work of art that was worthy of being auctioned off at the school gala. So no pressure.
Hayley: I don't even know what to say. This is why I'm never gonna be a parent.
Amy: I mean, the children worked so hard and created a thing of beauty. And I’m so proud of them.
Hayley: Oh, I bet. My worst nightmare.
Amy: Yeah. Arts and crafts, not my journey. You know, it is a work of art created by children and it's beautiful, you know, 'cause children are awesome. And I'm really glad that it's done.
Hayley: Yeah. It's over. It's over. There you go.
Amy: Yeah. Yeah.
Hayley: Well, congrats on that. Okay.
Amy: So today, we're speaking with Rachel Walker Mason, who is new to both of us.
Hayley: Yeah, we've never met her before, but she's a badass, and she reached out to us, and she's a British songwriter, both in the pop space and in the musical theatre space.
Amy: She's working on a show called The Circle. I'm really excited in this interview, well, to meet Rachel and hear what she's all about. And I'm really excited to, like, hear about what it is like writing songs and writing theatre in a place that is not the US, because I bet it looks real different.
Hayley: Yeah, well, I can say that even between Canada and the US, it's different, so across the pond, I'm sure, even more so.
Amy: Absolutely.
Hayley: So, very excited to chat with Rachel and to get to know her. If any of you are listening and you want to be interviewed, we love when people pitch themselves. We didn't know Rachel, but we we’re very excited to meet her and excited to share her perspective with you all.
Amy: Let's do it!
(Musical transition)
Amy: Rachel Walker Mason is a Grammy voting member, the recipient of a prestigious British Citizen Award for contribution to the arts, and was named a songwriting expert by BBC Radio 4's Today program. The writer of New British musical The Circle, and winner of the Styles and Drew Best New Song Prize in 2023, Rachel is currently writing songs with Grammy, Emmy, and Ivor Novello Award winners, The Voice UK, American Idol alumni and Oscar nominees.
Rachel is a mentor for the Grammys, Help Musicians, and the Ivor Novello Academy. She's also a featured artist for Columbia University's Songcraft Anthology and an executive member of the Songwriters Hall of Fame. Named a Woman of the Year 2020, the only British musician to be inducted into the Indie Music Hall of Fame, and hailed an “inspiration” by Prince Harry, Rachel is the youngest person to be made a Fellow of the London College of Music by Professional Achievement and is one of the British representatives for the World Choir Council.
As a well-respected music industry judge, Rachel has been on the judging panels for Intercontinental Music Awards, the British Short Film Awards, Sky TV's Sing: Ultimate A Capella, the UK Songwriting Contest, and many others.
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, we are here with the brilliant Rachel Walker Mason. Could you please introduce yourself, share your pronouns, and tell us a little bit about what you do in theatre?
Rachel: Sure, I'm Rachel Walker Mason, she/her. I'm a British songwriter and musical theatre writer. And I’ve just written a musical called The Circle, which is - yeah, well, it's like, my third child, basically.
Hayley: Rachel, can you tell us a little bit about how you got into songwriting in the first place and how you got into theatre?
Rachel: I've always written songs, I guess. My parents always say that I was this quite unusual child and that I would hear songs on the radio when I was about one and I would just sing them back. I couldn't do normal-person things like math. But I would always have lyrics and tunes in my head. And I thought that was quite normal until I realized that other people didn't do that. Because you just think - as a child, you think that the way you think is the same as everybody else, because you wouldn't know any different.
And I've always had a condition called synesthesia, which means I see music as colors. So, it feels like I've been kind of cut out for this job. Like, my genetics have done it. My DNA has just made me right for this job and not for anything else, it seems.
Amy: Can you talk us through a bit of your career journey so far?
Rachel: Yeah, so I always wrote songs. I've studied music all the way through my life. I've been very lucky to have parents who were quite happy to pay for me to have singing lessons and piano lessons and guitar lessons. And we weren't wealthy, they would just make sure that my sister and I always had the things that we wanted, we needed. And they could see from quite early on that I had musical talent, so they’d always drive me around to places, to concerts and lessons and things.
And I did music all the way through school. I did my degree in classical music, because there wasn't really much else in the early 2000s. You couldn't study contemporary songwriting. So I was singing classical things, and I was going to lectures about Beethoven and Mozart, etc. But I would go and work in a studio in the night - because I was like 20 then and could live on much less sleep than I do now. And I would go and record my own songs, and I'd get up the next day for Beethoven lectures.
Then after my degree, I started teaching singing, because I needed to actually make some money, have a proper job. So I've been teaching singing for almost 20 years now. And have always continued writing.
And then, it was mainly during lockdown - well, it was a rubbish time. But one of the few upsides was the fact that all songwriters were trapped at home, so they couldn't go into writing sessions, they couldn't go to studios. If we wanted to write, we had to do it over Zoom, and no one had done it before because we didn't need to. But yeah, then suddenly artists who normally you'd have to travel all the way to Nashville or all the way to London or wherever to work with them were just like, “Yeah, sure, let's, let's write over Zoom.”
And so I did about 200 writes over lockdown with people all over the world. And I got really good at writing a lot quickly. And I kept coming up with ideas. My fear was always, “Oh, if I have to write every single day, I won't have enough in my brain to write songs.” But I realized I could do it and the more I did it, the quicker I got at finding new things to write about.
But yeah, that really kind of altered my horizon hugely because you suddenly got to meet people that you wouldn't have met before. And then, once you're in that network, people recommend you. And so, I've just carried on doing that. So I have lots of songs coming out all the time with different artists. So I write with them, for them, which is great, because I don't sound right for their genre, but I can write in their genre, so that's really fun.
Hayley: That’s so cool. I'm really excited to hear about The Circle and how that was born.
Rachel: Of course, so that's my first musical! My first proper musical. I never thought I'd do it, like, I never had that aspiration. I didn’t think I'd ever put the two things together. Like, I'm a songwriter and I like musical theatre.
And it all started with my best friend Abby, who also teaches musical theatre. She's very clever. I've known her since I was 14 and she's really pushy. We go to London quite often. We live out in the West Country, sort of near Glastonbury, where the Glastonbury Festival is. We live near there. So we're about two hours from London. But we go up to London quite often for research trips.
We went up to see a couple of shows, and this was August 2021. And on the way up there, we were driving up there and Abby said to me, “When are you going to write a musical? You know, you could do that.” And I was like, “Could I?”
And then she basically convinced me the whole way to London that I have the skills to do that. And I was like, “But what would I write about?” And she was like, “You know what you'd write about.” And I was like, “No, I really don't.” And then it kind of came to me throughout that day what I would write about, and I thought, “Well, I'll write about women in songwriting, because that's what I know.”
We see a lot of musicals and often it's male writers. There's far fewer female writers in musical theatre.
Hayley: Mmm-hmmm.
Rachel: Quite often, the stories are quite male-heavy and the women are sort of, you know, also there…and, that's fine.
But I was a bit like, “Come on, it's 2021,” as it was then. And I just thought, haven't we come a bit further than that? Aren't women allowed to have their own stories? We've got a lot to say about stuff that’s happened to us. Writing from the perspective of a woman about women rather than a man writing about what he probably thinks you went through…
I'm one of those people who, if I go and look for something specific and it doesn't exist, I'll be like, “Right, well, I'll just do it. I'll just make it then.” I've done that with books and songs. I'm like, “Well, I'll just go and do it. What's the worst that could happen?”
Hayley: I love that attitude.
Amy: That's a great attitude. Yeah, we need more of that.
Rachel: Exactly. What's the worst that's going to happen if it goes wrong? You've still gained that experience. It’s just, you know, it didn't work out necessarily how you planned, but quite often it does if you've got the bravery to just go and do it.
So I thought, “Okay, fine, so I'll write this musical…” because she bullied me into it. And I see my best friend a lot, so she would just go on about it forever if I said no.
And I said, “Well, I can't write scripts. I'm not a script writer.” And she was like, “Oh, that's fine, we can find you someone.” She teaches on a musical theatre degree course. And then, lo and behold, about two weeks after that, a new staff member started on her course, and that was Eloise.
So she'd been working there for like two weeks and then got introduced to me. She's got two children, I've got two children. We're the same kind of age, in our 40s. We’re both women that have been through divorces, mental health things... and we realized we were really similar people and got on really well.
Then we started to talk about the musical and realized that we could kind of tell our stories through it. Because I didn't really want to base it on a movie or a book or anything, particularly. We wanted to tell an original story because…it doesn't feel like there's much original storytelling now. So we just thought “Yeah, let's just make something from scratch!” As two insane middle-aged women would do.
So we ended up writing it about a songwriters circle that's kind of set sort of in the West Country of the UK. But when it's performed all over the world, it can be set there. It doesn't really matter. It's sort of placeless in that sense. And there's lots of different women of different ages, because we were also really tired of there not being any women over like, 30 in theatre. You're like, “Dear God!”
Hayley: Speak on it, Rachel. It's so important.
Rachel: Either they're like, an old crazy person or they're a ghost and you're like, “Really?”
So we've got people who are in their 40s, and they will be played by people in their 40s. And we've got a character in her 50s who is hilarious. And then, we've got a character who's in her 70s, so it's a really wide age range, which you don't see a lot in theatre. And I wanted to represent that.
Yeah, they go through different things. One character is going through domestic violence, which is really hard. And so the other characters are trying to help with that because that's really difficult. And the character that's kind of roughly based on me, she has postnatal depression. So she's set up the songwriter circle, which is a thing that I also did. It’s based on what I did after I admitted I had some mental health issues after my daughter was born.
And so we've kind of written it from that point of view. So my script writer has a couple of characters that are kind of based on her and her experiences and the other ones are based on me. And then there's lots of other people we've kind of pulled from. People we know, people where we understand their experiences. And we've quite often included them to help us write that story. So it feels really authentic. And we've got one of the first trans characters as well. It's one of the first characters who's trans and will be played by someone trans, and the character is awesome. It's really fun because we can just do what we want, basically. Write what we want. Write who we want to see on stage. We've done that, and it's very kind of real person, real life. Hopefully it speaks to people in a real way.
Amy: When you're talking about The Circle, when you're talking about your work, I'm hearing all sorts of threads of things that you're trying to do with your art that are coming through. I wonder if you could speak to - like, is there a specific creative mission that drives your work?
Rachel: Being authentic and writing about the things that people don't necessarily want to write about.
Amy: Yeah.
Rachel: It's easier to keep things private and not talk about it. But it's like, why shouldn't we? If you've been through something, it's very likely that thousands of other people have been through the same thing. Why shouldn't we talk about it? Why shouldn't we try and break that stigma? So, I really like writing about things that I have experience of that I think might be helpful to others. So in my kind of general songwriting, I tend to sort of fit in with what the writer wants. And I become a support to them and say, “What do you want to write?” You know, getting that story out.
When you get to write about deeper things, it's really fun because there might be someone who really needs to hear that. There's a lot more writing about mental health nowadays. There's a lot more about that. Lewis Capaldi writes quite a lot about his mental health struggles. He talks about that quite a lot, and I think it’s helped a lot of people to realize that even rich and famous people also go through the same things that us normals do.
Mental health doesn't sort of pick and choose, like, “Oh, you're gonna have a hard time.” Everybody can really struggle at different points. Normalizing that has, I think, really started to help people.
Hayley: I think so too. Yeah.
Amy: Yeah, I think art and theatre and music are such great outlets for exploring those issues, and really good ways to, yeah, connect people and build community around that too, so that people don't feel alone.
Rachel: If you just look at Dear Evan Hansen, the response from that was unbelievable. It was the last show we saw, actually, my best friends and I, before lockdown. It was like February 2020. And that day, about 10 minutes before we went into the theatre to see that, quite a famous celebrity in the UK had died. She's called Caroline Flack. British people probably know who that is, Americans might not, but she was a big TV personality. And she had very sadly committed suicide, and it was a huge mental health thing. And reading that, and then going in to see Dear Evan Hansen, it was all very fresh. Oh my gosh. People were just weeping openly in the theatre. And I don't know if it was the Caroline Flack thing or just the show…but people that didn't seem like they'd be that emotional, and that sounds really judgy–
Hayley: It gave them the space to let that out.
Rachel: It was like, open weeping, full-on snot and everything. It was like, wow. Like, messy crying in the theatre. You don't see that often. But it's so real.
Amy: I definitely messy-cried when I saw Dear Evan Hansen. Very messy crying going on.
Rachel: Yeah, and they're just very normal on stage. They're just there in their jeans singing and talking about how you feel. The mom’s talking about “Does anybody have a map? Does anyone know how to deal with being a mom?” And ahhhh, I've really felt that because I've got kids also. Oh god, you just - it's written in a very realistic way of how people genuinely feel. And I think when something is really real, it really hits you in a way that you think, “Oh my gosh, that's how I felt!” And it gives words to a feeling that you may not have been able to vocalize before. And I think that's why people get upset [watching] things like that because it suddenly really hits them very close to their own life.
Hayley: Yeah.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Rachel, I want to shift gears and talk a little bit about womanhood. Can you just tell us a little bit about what being a woman means to you and how it fits into your work as an artist?
Rachel: Gosh, that's a big question. I love being a woman. I'm very happy I'm a woman. It's not easy to be a woman, and sometimes there are huge barriers. You don't get picked for things because [people think] you might go off and have a baby or you might have a period or start crying or whatever, and so there's still that kind of barrier. Even now, even in 2024. You think, “Really?”
But it's fascinating. And raising a daughter and a son, you really reassess what it is to be a woman when you have a woman to raise. And a male to raise…because of how he deals with women and how he perceives what women are and what women can do. They've been the biggest lessons I've learned about who I am.
I knew I was a strong person. I've been through a divorce, I've been through lots of things before. I know I can boss my way through pretty much anything. But when I gave birth - and it was like two quite difficult long births - I realized I can really do that. I can pretty much do anything now. And it was hard, but it was what I wanted.
And then raising kids in my very odd lifestyle… My husband's got a normal-person job. He works for Sony. I say to people, “I'm married to a normal.”
Hayley: I love this “A normal.” I might steal it, Rachel.
Rachel: (Laughs) Like, yeah, he's my normal. When a crazy like me is married to another crazy, it's like, “Damn, how does anything ever get done?”
So he's a very stabilizing force, a really super supportive person. He loves to talk about what I do and he’s very proud of me and will come and support me at everything. He often sets up tech for me because I'm absolutely useless with that. So he's often there plugging in speakers and doing that kind of thing.
And he's a brilliant dad. He grew up with a very confident mom who worked. And his grandmother was this total badass woman who did incredible things. And back then, that was like the ‘40s then, and women weren't really allowed to do things like she did then. So he comes from a line of powerful women. So I think without knowing it, he probably looked for another woman who was equally as strong and had dreams and would go for it. And that's exactly what he got.
Hayley: That’s what we, Amy and I, would call chutzpah.
Rachel: 100%, 100%. And I've always been that person. And for a long time, boyfriends would find me to be too much. They'd be like, “You're too much. Can't you just be normal?”
I was like, “No!” I did try, but then I realized, “Why should I? This is who I am.” And the more I've stepped into being who I am, the more I've understood womanhood and the more I've understood my power and what I'm capable of and what women are capable of. And what we can do for each other.
Hayley: That's the one for me, yeah.
Rachel: My favorite thing in the world is when strong women come together and are cheerleaders for each other and they're like, “Oh, I know someone who can do such-and-such, I'll put you in touch with them.”
They're not threatened by each other. They just want to build each other up and love each other, and that’s like…
Amy: That's the best.
Rachel: Yeah. It is. I see that a lot, particularly in the arts. You get a lot of people like that because they’re brave enough to go and do this ridiculous job.
Hayley: We're not normals!
Rachel: Exactly! I'm part of this group called “Freelance Moms.” And there's all these moms that do completely different jobs. They're graphic designers and they're public speakers. They do all these things. They run their own businesses and they are strong and they still find things hard…but we all support each other. We're all completely different people, but we all get that we have these dreams and we want to just go and do them. We're not the people who will wait around for someone to give us a chance.
We're like, “I'll go make that chance then. Why should I wait for someone to give me that opportunity?”
Amy: You don't see the show you want, write it yourself.
Rachel: Exactly. ‘Cause I’m like, I'm not going to wait around and go, “Oh, well, I never did anything because no one ever let me.” Just go and do it! And quite often, the more yourself you are, the more authentic you are, the more you'll draw people to you who like you for you. And if they don't like that, then they just won't be friends and that’s fine, all right, not my people, that's fine.
Amy: You gotta find your people.
Rachel: Yeah, you have! And then they're the people who will cheer for you and be happy when something like this happens. And equally you're there for them, you're not threatened by each other. I do believe there's space for everyone. Everyone can go for what they want. It's much better to have that multiplier mindset.
Hayley: We already have to expend so much energy trying to do all of the different things we want to do as artists and then pay the bills and all of these things. So we don't need to then expend extra energy being negative and you know, jealous and all of that.
Amy: Tearing other people down, yeah.
Rachel: Exactly, then you have nothing left. It's interesting watching my daughter, because she's now six, nearly seven. She's just a mini-me. It's hilarious. She comes out with song lyrics. Actually, my son does as well. They both just go, “Oh, Mommy, I thought of a song!” because they’ve seen me doing this. So they just think, “I can do that.” And they actually can, they've got that writer brain. Poor things, I'm like, “Oh god.”
But they see me writing on Zoom with people all over the world. They don't see any barriers to anything because they see me going and doing weird things. Like going off and running a choir competition and coming back and teaching something else. So they see me living this very varied and unusual life where I can fit things in because I'm self-employed, I can fit things in around them. So I'm there for school pickup, school play, and that kind of thing, which - I've always wanted to be that kind of mom.
But they know that sometimes - like right at the moment, it's evening here. So they're getting ready for bed and doing their math, and my husband will be helping them because they know I'm doing this. I like that they know that Mummy does things, and they can be proud of me. They're like, “Oh yeah, that's Mummy’s room with trophies in it.” And, “Oh yeah, that's Mummy's musical.” They just find it all quite normal, because it's just what I do.
I remember my daughter being really sad the day they started doing this thing in school years ago when she was about four. Where you get a star of the week. And as, you know, it’s the snowflake generation, every single person in that class will get star of the week, no matter what's been going on, even if they vomited in the middle of the carpet, they'd get star of the week. Throughout the year, everyone's going to get it. But when the first person got it, everybody else was really upset because they were four, and they didn't understand that eventually they'd all get it.
And my daughter Layla, she came home and she was like, “I didn't get star of the week!” And I was like, “Honey, don't worry, everyone in the class will get it over the school year.” And I said, “We don't get sad, we don't get angry with people winning something. We cheer for them until it's our turn.” And she was like, “Okay.”
I think it was a good three or four months till she got star of the week, but she sat there and cheered and clapped. I'm glad she had that experience because it teaches you that you're not always the winner in life and it’s good to support other people and be proud of them. So she always comes home now and goes, “Oh mum, guess who got star of the week?”
And - she's not perfect, none of us are perfect. But she's a much nicer person than I was at that age, I think.
Amy: That's a really good life lesson to learn.
Hayley: Rachel, it sounds like you've got a great partner in your husband, helping you to balance all of these things that you're doing. How else do you think about balancing your creative life and your mom life and all of the things that you want to do?
Rachel: Ooh, it's not easy, and if anyone figures out an ideal way to do it, then please DM me, because I want to know.
Hayley: Me too, DM me too.
Rachel: (Laughs) It's hard because we're still living like we're in the ‘50s and doing all the housework stuff, but also, we're living like it's now because it is now and we're also having jobs.
So it’s like, the working week is not set up for two people in a household having jobs. You still have to cook the dinner and pay the bills and look after the children and try and get all your work done. So one thing that I've done since I had children is I've learned not to procrastinate because there just isn't time. So I feel like I get more done now because there isn't time to put it off. It's actually made me more productive in a very odd way.
Hayley: You're actually not the only mom who's said that.
Amy: Yeah. I mean, I say that all the time. Becoming a mom just makes you so efficient. Because you have to be, because what's the choice? We train ourselves. I don't know. For me at least, when my daughter was a baby, I would have that hour of nap time, and I had to get everything done in that hour. And so I would just train myself to get everything done in that hour.
Rachel: Yeah, my gosh. Literally, yeah. That is exactly how it is. I thought once they went to school, I'd be like, “Oh, there’s six hours when they're not here.” But that goes really fast.
Hayley: Right. When the time expands, it runs away also.
Rachel: Yeah. I have to book things in or I just don't do it. Like with songwriting, I have to book sessions with people because then I'll do it. Whereas if it's just me at home, I'll go, “Oh, well, I'll get such-and-such admin done.” So having deadlines really works for me, because I'll have to finish it. Otherwise, I'll think of something else. I'm very like, “Oh, there's a shiny thing, I'll go and follow that.” And I'll come up with some other idea.
I'm great at starting things, but following it all the way through the bits that aren't very interesting I find a bit harder. So I have to really focus on actually finishing stuff. Otherwise, I wouldn't actually have achieved anything. There'd just be loads of half-finished projects.
Hayley: I think that's common among creative people. I think deadlines really help. As a writer myself, that's definitely true. If I don't have a deadline, like, good luck to me, getting it done.
Amy: Yeah, deadlines and accountability, too. I know Hayley and I are both big collaboration people. We love to collaborate with each other and to collaborate with others, because for me, if I don't have a collaborator, there's a high likelihood that that project is not going to get done because I'm not accountable to anyone.
Rachel: Exactly, exactly. Yeah, I'm exactly the same. Working with Eloise, my script writer, is really helpful, because between us we have four kids. And I have an amazing husband but she doesn't have anyone, so she is a lone parent and she is incredible. So quite often, her kids will be there as well, and they love to climb on us when we're writing. So quite often, we write stuff trapped under two kids. Earlier this week, my little boy was off school because he'd been sick once, and then he was not allowed to go to school again for 48 hours.
You just crack on because that's what it is. It's easier than trying to pry him off you, because then he'll just be moaning and then you can't get anything done. So, yeah, parenting is that, it’s just trying to manage what you can when you can.
And I've learned to think fast and then just voice-note something or write it down. When I'm just thinking about something else, like pairing socks or something really boring like that, something will come to me, like a song idea or something. So I've just gotten used to recording it straight away in my phone, because I know I won't remember. I know that with my brain now, that I'm not 20 anymore. I cannot remember things. And then it's gone. And then you're like, “Oh, rats.”
So I try to do that, but I find the more I have ideas in the back of my mind and I get on with other things, the more my brain's sort of ticking away on it, which I know there's a scientific thing about that…
Hayley: Yeah, totally. Actually, one of Amy and I's teachers, Adam Gwon, says, “Sometimes writing is taking a walk. Or sometimes writing is staring out the window. Or sometimes writing is cooking.” Because your mind will actually solve the problem, and like, trying to brute-force it doesn't always serve you.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: I want to ask you: If you could make one change to the theatre industry, what would it be?
Rachel: Ooh…I guess to make it as inclusive as possible. It's all very well for people to train in theatre and be given those opportunities, but then if there are no roles for them, then what do they do?
Also, it feels like a very rich-kids kind of game. I was teaching at some quite rough schools in Bristol, and there were some absolutely amazing kids. And their parents were barely older than I was. They were like 15 when they had their children. And you just think - the likelihood of those kids getting the opportunities to go to drama school is so small. That's just not how they've been brought up, they all got pregnant really young. And it was just heartbreaking that there just weren't those opportunities. So I love trying to help with things like that. I’ve run a scholarship for years, write off the singing lessons and tuition and stuff for people who really want to go into the arts but just couldn't afford it.
Amy: So Rachel, what are you most proud of in your life and in your work?
Rachel: Oh my goodness, that's tricky. I was very proud when we won the Stiles and Drewe Best New Song Award. That was a moment I did not think was going to happen. I remember going up to London that day and saying to my husband, “I really don't think we're gonna win.”
But I was just thinking of the other pluses like, we’ll get to meet lots of other writers and it'll be a really nice day, and my parents will get to see this song on stage, and Renee Lamb, who's one of the original queens from Six, was singing our song. So I was just thinking that all that would be a lovely experience. And then we were sitting there and then they said, “And the winner is the emotionally magnificent ‘Drown Without Water,’” and Eloise and I just sort of looked at each other like, “But that's not… but that's…that's ours, that's ours!” And I was trying to walk up on stage and not fall down, because I thought, “Oh god, I'm gonna have a Jennifer Lawrence moment where I fall off the stairs, that'll be embarrassing.”
But yeah, for a song about postnatal depression, my own struggle with that, to be heard by that audience, and then to win, felt massive because I went through that. Normally, you know, we're creative people, we can boss our way through anything. As I always said, I'm like, “Ah, I can get through that. I got through a divorce. I got through various horrible breakups.” And you know, we just get on with it. That's what we do.
And I just could not get past this. And I was so embarrassed and so ashamed that I didn't tell anyone. And during that time, I shot a TV show, my daughter was like three months old, I did a music video, tons of stuff. And people thought I was just this superwoman, but actually I was just lying. I was falling apart behind the scenes. And then, a few years later, I wrote this song with my co-writer Nina called “Drown Without Water,” and that's how I felt, like I'm drowning. Only I could fall from rock-bottom. I'm epically failing, and I don't know what to do about this.
And so for that song to win felt like a big win for all women and all of us who have been through mental health problems, particularly after we've had our children. So being able to bear that song and for it to be really heard - that's probably the proudest moment, I would think, because it wasn't just for me. It was for all of us.
Hayley: I love that. Thank you for sharing.
Amy: Congratulations. Yeah, that's really remarkable.
Hayley: Thank you so much for being here with us today. It's been such a delight to get to know you and hear about what you're up to. Could you tell our listeners where they can find you on the internet?
Rachel: Absolutely. So I'm pretty active on Instagram. I'm Rachel Walker Mason on Instagram and Facebook. I'm Rachel Walker Mason on Twitter. My website is www.rachelwalkermason.com.
There's lots of stuff about The Circle. If you just type in “The Circle Musical,” stuff will come up.
Amy: We're really excited to see what happens with your show and with all of your songs and we're, we're here cheering for you.
Hayley: Yeah, you've added us to your cheerleading squad.
Amy: Absolutely.
Rachel: And I'm part of yours, I'm absolutely part of yours.
Amy: Yay. Thank you.
Rachel: Thank you so much, girls. That's so lovely.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Oh my gosh, that was such an incredible interview. I really enjoyed listening to Rachel and hearing about her experience. I love genre-crossing individuals, so I love that she has this, like, deep experience in pop music and was like, “I want to write a musical.” I love that. Yes, bring it on. Do it.
Hayley: Yeah, I love that too. I also love her attitude of, “If there isn't something out there for me, I'm just gonna make my own way and stomp through those ceilings and those doors and whatever else.”
Amy: Yeah!
Hayley: I love that perspective. Hearing her talk about her journey with her mental health and how she's remained positive and found ways through that. It's very real and very appreciated. I hope that you all enjoyed hearing what Rachel had to say as much as we did.
Amy, tell me who your Trailblazer is this week.
Amy: My Trailblazer of the Week… We spoke with someone from across the pond today, and so it makes me want to uplift my absolute favorite lady across the pond, Virginia Woolf, whose novel [To the Lighthouse] I am currently adapting into a musical.
Hayley: If you haven't read A Room of One's Own, Amy made me read it a couple years ago, and I absolutely loved it and it's still super relevant. So I would definitely recommend if you haven't checked that out yet. But tell us about Virginia Woolf, Amy, ‘cause I know how passionate you are about her.
Amy: Yay! Oh my gosh, I love that you brought up A Room of One's Own, yes. Virginia Woolf is one of my favorite writers and historical figures. Artistically, I really love the way that she uses language. She has a style that is truly all her own, and she creates word pictures that are so incredible to me. One of her big projects that she did as a writer was playing with perspectives. She would write novels - Mrs. Dalloway is the one that a lot of people have read - she would write a novel that kind of shifts between the point of view of all the different characters, which is really interesting and was really groundbreaking at the time she was writing in the early 20th century.
She also - as a writer, she basically took on this project of modernizing the novel and exploring what it would mean to write a novel that is “feminine.” Basically to take writing, which at the time was very much a man's sport, and, uh…
Hayley: …to bring it back to the sport metaphor.
Amy: Exactly. And to make it a woman's project and to figure out, well, “What if I want to write a novel, but I don't want it to be like the men's novels? Like, what would it look like to have a woman's novel?”
She also was a member of the Bloomsbury group, and they were a really cool group of writers in early 20th-century London who were basically a writing group. They were all, like, best friends and sometimes lovers and they would critique each other's work. A lot of them actually made their living by writing reviews of each other's work that were published.
And that collaborative approach to writing - you know, they were writing literary criticism and they were writing fiction, they weren't writing theatre necessarily - but the collaborative approach really reminds me a lot of musical theatre writing. They were like, big thinkers, progressive thinkers of their time, and really moved the art form forward. And yeah, Virginia Woolf is my Trailblazer of the Week for all of those reasons.
Hayley: I love it.
Amy: Hayley, who's your Trailblazer of the Week?
Hayley: My Trailblazer of the Week is one of my OG favorite writers and leaders - actually in Hollywood, not so much in theatre, and in television - Amy Sherman Palladino.
Amy: Yes!
Hayley: I love Amy's work. When I discovered Gilmore Girls, I felt so seen and understood. I was like, “Oh, Lorelai Gilmore, girl, I get you. I understand you.” I was 16 and I was like, “I see you, I get you, I feel you.” And I love the pace of her writing. I love how funny it is, but then also like, gutting at times and devastating.
Amy: Gilmore Girls is such an iconic show. I love it so much.
Hayley: Totally. Yes. And I also love her other big show, which is Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. I'm a big, big fan of Maisel.
Amy: Love!
Hayley: That genre of dramedy and stories that center these complex women and their multi-generational stories, it just always speaks to me. Even though Amy writes mainly for television, her work is very much like a play and it's described as such in the way that she talks about it, with the pace of it and, like, the timing and the rhythm and all of that. And so I've drawn a lot of inspiration from Amy and her work in the work that I write for the stage and I love her.
So if you're not familiar with Amy Sherman Palladino, go look her up. She's really, really awesome. And those shows are deep and meaningful to me. So, yeah.
Amy: Absolutely. Me too, listeners. Me too.
Hayley, before we run away, I want to hype you up today. Um, because I've been thinking a lot lately about a thing that you shared with me, which is the idea of core values and values alignment. I was recently in a space where we were talking about, like, “What are three words that describe you and your work? Like, your approach to creative work.” Which is such a hard question.
Hayley: And also a very worthwhile exercise.
Amy: And a worthwhile…
Hayley: If you haven't done that, like, think about it.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And so I've just been looking at life through that lens this week, and when I think about you, the first word that comes to mind is values-aligned. You are so clear on what your values are, and you are so mindful and intentional about living your life in a way that reflects those values, and I just love that about you, girl.
Hayley: Aww, thank you. It's hard, but it's something that is worth doing.
Amy: Yeah!
Hayley: I think it really grounds me. I think that there's this misconception that you “find yourself” in your early 20s and then you're sort of like that person for the rest of your life, and I think that…
Amy: Oh god, no.
Hayley: Yeah, no, I know! But like, there is sort of this thing where it's like, “Well, you figure yourself out and then that's it.” And I think for me, that journey of losing yourself and coming back to yourself or evolving yourself is like, a lifelong journey. And so whenever I feel disconnected from the core of who I am, just knowing what those values are and having a super clear reference point to come back to always really helps me.
So it's nice that you complimented me on it as a personality thing, but for me it's more like a tool that I use to help me.
Amy: It’s an identity thing, yeah.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: It's a “how you show up in the world” thing.
Hayley: Yeah, thank you! I want to hype you up because I feel like you're always excited to share knowledge and you're very anti gatekeep, which I really appreciate. You are a person who is never going to like, balk at somebody asking you for help, asking you for a recommendation on something.
You're a person who is very passionate about knowledge being shared, and you actively go out of your way to make sure that… You know, if there's somebody that you know that can help somebody else out, you're putting them in contact, like, you connect them. If there's a book that you think someone should read or a show someone should watch because you think they would like it or because you think that it would help them in some way, like, you're just very open with sharing information, with being transparent and doing what you can to help people. And I think that's very admirable. So, that's what I want to hype you up for today, Amy.
Amy: Thank you! Thanks, friend.
Hayley: Of course!
Amy: Oh my gosh. All right listeners, go hype your people up. This is your sign.
Hayley: We love you.
Amy: We love you.
Hayley: Have a great week. Talk to you soon. Bye!
(Music)
Hayley: Join us on November 13th at 10 am for our virtual coworking space.
Amy: We're having a party! Join us on December 12th at 5 pm for the first annual Women & Theatre Holiday Networking Event. Fabulous location to be announced soon.
Hayley: Come ready to have fun, make friends, and ring in the holiday season with the Women & Theatre community.
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews! If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show was written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
