S3E3: Rejection
In this episode, Hayley and Amy chat about the importance of making peace with rejection as part of a creative life, share tips and lessons learned about how to manage rejection, and offer ideas for how to change our collective mindset about success. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
American Psychological Association: The pain of social rejection
Women & Theatre Season 2 Episode 4: Scarcity and Abundance
Kim Liao: Why You Should Aim for 100 Rejections a Year
The Freelance Artist’s Manifesto - offered by W&T alum Marlo Hunter this spring at Musical Creators Institute
Reshma Saujani: Smith College commencement speech 2023
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, and welcome to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We're your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cup of coffee and join us as we talk to people in the theatre industry about their experiences with womanhood.
Hayley: On the pod, we interview people with different gender identities, from different backgrounds, with varying levels of industry experience and professional roles.
Amy: Our goal is to build community and pool our collective wisdom to break down the barriers we continue to face.
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, and welcome back to Women & Theatre.
Amy: We are really happy to have you with us today as Hayley and I chat about a very relevant topic for all of us in the theatre industry and all of us in creative pursuits in general, which is rejection. It's something that shows up a lot in our lives and our work, and I think every one of us in the theatre industry has to grapple with the role that rejection plays in our lives in order to get along.
So Hayley, do you want to start us off by talking about how you've seen rejection showing up in your work or in the industry as a whole?
Hayley: Yeah, definitely. I think in theater specifically, we have to make friends with rejection in a way that other industries don't as much, simply because we're constantly applying for jobs. Whether you're an actor with auditions, whether you're a writer who's doing submissions or applying for commissions or grants or other opportunities, whether you're a director and you're looking for opportunities to do your work with different theatre companies - you're constantly interviewing, applying for jobs. And with other industries, there's a lot more structure. And of course, many of us are freelancers, as artists. So there's just this different relationship that we have with it where we just have to get used to it .
For me personally, it's taken me a while to get to a place where I'm comfortable with rejection and not letting it define how I view myself as a person or as an artist. I think that that's something that I struggle ongoing with, but also struggled with a lot in the even earlier days of my career.
I found I have to create a relationship with opportunity where I don't become too attached to said opportunity. Once I've applied for said job or sent out said submission or whatever, it's sort of like “Let it go and let it do its thing.” And try to focus on something else, and try to almost assume that I'm not going to get something, and so it's a joyful surprise if I do get good news.
When I feel like something is really my opportunity, I'm not afraid to speak it to the people who are close to me. But I try not to get too fixated on it, because I feel like that's when the rejection becomes really painful and when my identity and my ideas around what's happening next are so fixated on this one thing. And that can be really dangerous, I find, for my well-being.
Amy: Yeah, I think for all of us who work this gig-to-gig freelance life, which many of us in the theatre do, it's hard. There is research, which we will link to in the show notes, about how hearing rejection after rejection, hearing no after no after no - it can really affect your well-being, your mental and your emotional health.
I wish that there were better structures built within the theatre industry and other creative industries to help people figure out how to cope. Because I've seen a lot of people in the theatre industry - myself included, honestly - who encountered that life and were like, “Oh, you know, I love theatre, but I don't love this feeling of being rejected all the time, so maybe I'm gonna just leave and go do something else.”
I mean, I remember when I was performing way back in the day, I had teachers who would say to me that when you're a performer, your job is auditioning. And it feels that way as a writer, too, right? Your job is submissions. Your job is always looking for the next job.
Hayley: It's interesting that you say that. I don't necessarily feel that way. I think it's just a different kind of frame around it, where for me, I think my job is writing. My job is showing up to my sessions and being my most kind, creative, generous self when I'm making work.
I sort of separate it into the creative aspect of my business and the business aspect of my business. I try to separate those things as much as possible so that I can, for instance, not spend my writing sessions working on the logistics of submissions. I'm really strict with myself about - like, if this is creative time, this is creative time, and setting aside separate time to manage the business aspect. And so, I think it definitely is a big part of our job as writers to get our work out there and make people aware of it. But I think from a mindset perspective, it's more helpful to think of it as “My job is showing up to write.” I think that that can be very helpful.
Amy: Yeah, I agree. I think that that is a really, really healthy approach to it and something that's hard for folks to do.
Hayley: It's hard.
Amy: Because it kind of all is the same thing - and it's not, but it is, right? Because it's all trying to progress in your career.
Hayley: Well, it's amorphous.
Amy: Exactly!
Hayley: Yeah, yeah.
Amy: Yeah, and when you are a freelancer, when you are gig-to-gig, you do wear a lot of different hats. And it can be hard - especially when you're starting out - to see those boundaries between them and be firm about those boundaries.
Hayley: Yeah, but I have found that that's what keeps me sane, is actually compartmentalizing those things. The more that I can remind myself that the part that is my job is the part that I love doing, you know?
Amy: Yeah. I want to go back to what you were saying about trying to make sure that you're not building up each individual opportunity too much so that it feels overwhelming and like, “Oh my gosh, my whole career is riding on whether I get a yes to this one thing.” I think that's a trap that a lot of us fall into.
Hayley: Well, it's scarcity mindset again. If anyone remembers that podcast.
Amy: Hey, throwback to Season 2!
Hayley: But it is! You're putting yourself into a narrow box, and you are creating that false idea that there's one way to succeed in this industry. Which, as we have proven time and time again with our interviews, there's so many ways! And you just don't know what is next or where that next opportunity is going to come from. But it is a really kind of sexy idea to get attached to, especially for those of us who have an enthusiasm for control, let's say.
Amy: But what's ironic about it is that in doing that - in saying, like, “This opportunity is the end all be all…” You actually give up your control and give it to the people who are hiring for that particular job.
Hayley: Right!
Amy: I like to think of it as a game of numbers. Not that I'm not being thoughtful about the submissions that I'm applying for, but given the rejection rates in this industry, the more things that you apply for, the more yeses you will get. When I started focusing less on the response and more on the work of putting in the submissions, of going to the auditions - that's when I really felt a shift in myself. Like, being able to be proud that I'd put in for something rather than waiting around being like, “Oh my god, is he gonna call?” You know?
Hayley: Totally. Well, yeah, and I think that's the thing, is that, like, auditions, submissions, interviews - they can all feel like a bad boyfriend.
Amy: Yeah!
Hayley: Or girlfriend, or partner, or whatever - who's just not calling you back. And so I think, the more that you can maintain your control… Thinking about how these opportunities might fit into your life as opposed to wrapping your life around the opportunities, especially before you have them, is a beautiful thing.
(Musical transition)
Since we're talking about it, why don't we talk about tips and lessons that we've learned about how to handle rejection? Talk to me, Amy, about this perspective that you have about checking things off as opposed to the yes being the win. Talk to me a little bit more about what that looks like for you.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. So, about a year ago, really not that long ago, I started logging my submissions. I realize that not everyone gets the joy from spreadsheets that I do, but for me, I have a cute little spreadsheet that has, you know, the opportunity and the date I submitted and what I sent to them, and then a column for the outcome. Like: It was a yes, it was a no, I never heard back, it's still pending... And so every time I submit to something, I add it to the spreadsheet. And what's been really interesting has been to see the shift in my mind where, instead of being like, “Oh my god, I haven't heard back from this opportunity,” I can look at the spreadsheet. And every time I add a new submission to it, it's an accomplishment. And it is, it's such a feeling of pride, like “I submitted this!”
Hayley: Yeah, it's like that feeling of checking something off.
Amy: Yeah, I'm putting myself out there, I'm doing the work. And that's the important part, is to do the work. The yeses will come. That's the thing. And I've seen that too, actually. Since I started logging the submissions, I've had a bunch of no's, but I've had a couple of yeses, and the yeses and the no’s are less important to me. It's great when I get a yes, and also, I don't feel like each individual opportunity is gonna make or break my career.
This isn't specifically theatre-related, but I read a great article a few years ago. And it was a woman who was a writer - not a theatre writer - and she made a project within a year to get a hundred rejections. And so she would just submit to everything that she could find, and she would collect the rejections and actually start to treat the rejections as a success. Like, each rejection brings me closer to my goal of having a hundred rejections because it's a numbers game. Let's say - I am making this number up off the top of my head - but let's say that there's a 10% success rate for submissions. I think it might be lower than that, it might be higher than that, who knows? But let's say it's 10%. If I get 100 rejections, I'm gonna get 10 yeses in there. And that's awesome for a year, you know?
Hayley: Yeah, that's where my idea sort of comes from about assuming everything's a no until it's a yes. Just because… As sad as that sounds, it's really not sad, because I get to control how I feel about my life, and I get to go on with my life. And I sort of also pair this idea with the idea that what's for you will not pass you by.
Amy: Say that again.
Hayley: What's for you will not pass you by. What it is for me is just that if I'm being authentically myself in my application, my submission, my interview, or whatever the case may be - and the other folks who I'm meeting are doing the same, then we're really just trying to evaluate, “Is this a good fit? Is my work, my philosophy, my values aligned with yours? And will it create an exciting collaboration?” That's really what it's all about. And so... If I get a no, there's no world in which I will ever find out the answer about why.
Amy: And it's never why you think it is.
Hayley: And it's never why you think it is. And so if I go to scarcity mindset and if I go to fear, and I say, “Oh, it must be because I'm not good enough, or it must be because I'm bad, or it must be because I'm X, Y, Z…” Then all of a sudden, I'm creating all of these stories that, first of all, may or may not be true, but second of all, they're 100% not helpful.
Amy: Yes.
Hayley: And if I do get a yes and I was thinking with that same mindset, this opportunity is gonna be everything to me. And all of a sudden, I'm putting all this pressure on the opportunity, the people I'm working with, myself for showing up for that opportunity, as opposed to like, “Oh cool, this is something where your values, my values, your work, my work are aligning together.” And what a joyful thing that is, and what a beautiful step that will be for me in my career, and hopefully I can serve you in whatever it is that you're looking for. And so it just creates more of an equitable distribution of power.
Amy: Yeah, what I love about that is that it's owning your own power in the situation. And I think that applies to everyone in the world, really, because job interviews are just like that too. The more that you can focus on it as a mutual evaluation - not just “Am I the best fit for this job,” but “Is this job the best fit for me?”
Which is not how we're trained to think about these things in theatre or otherwise.
Hayley: No!
Amy: We're trained to think the hiring team, the producing team has all the power, and they are going to hand-pick the lucky few auditioners or submissions or whatever. To a certain extent, there is truth in that. But the more that we can own our power in it, which we do have, the healthier it is for us. And the more longevity that we can have out of our careers, because we're not going to burn out by putting too much pressure on each individual opportunity.
Hayley: Yeah. And of course, that also comes from a place of privilege. It's much easier for me to have that mindset when I'm not desperate for a job that's gonna pay me right now.
Amy: Absolutely. If we're talking about it systemically, which we absolutely should be, I think it is important to acknowledge that this is a really hard industry to be entry-level in, because unlike most other industries, it is very hard - if not impossible - to make a living wage from theatre when you’re first getting started.
Hayley: At an entry level.
Amy: Right. So many of us - most of us - are working other jobs, sometimes in theatre, sometimes not, to support our theatrical careers. And that is 1) a shame that should be rectified at a systemic level, and 2) a reality that it's really important to have as part of this conversation.
Hayley: Yeah, and I think also just systemic inequities too. Like, rejection sometimes is gonna come from places that aren't fair. Let's just be honest about that - like, it will happen. I just choose to reclaim my power and think of it as - if a company doesn't want to hire me, let's say, because I'm a queer woman or because I'm a raging feminist…
Amy: Wait, are you a raging feminist??
Hayley: Whatever the case may be! If they don't want to hire me because of those things - yes, it might be an injustice or whatever, but I choose to think of it as, I don't want to work for them anyway. Because they are not going to meet my needs.
Amy: If it's not an opportunity that you are right for, it is probably also not an opportunity that is right for you.
Hayley: Right, that you actually want. And why would you want to be in a room where you are not desired? That's important. Your needs being met is important. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be grateful to be there and do your best work and work hard and all those things. Both things are true. But you have to remember that these jobs should meet your needs.
Amy: I think an important part of the conversation, too, for our early-career listeners, is - it is a bit like dating, where everyone tells you, you know, “Just be yourself!”
Hayley: Everything's like dating.
Amy: Everything's like dating. But for people who are just getting started, sometimes you don't know who you are yet. And that's okay too. And it's hard when people are saying to you, “Be authentic.” And you're like, I don't know what that means. For much of my 20s, I don't think I had a clue what being authentic means. I think we all learn more every year about who we are and what being authentic means for us. And especially if we're talking about folks coming up through theatre programs that often prioritize trying to be who other people want you to be instead of trying to figure out who you are.
Hayley: Yeah, and I think it helps with rejection when you know who you are too. Because when you have confidence and know what you can do, it helps with everything. Because it's much easier, if you have a foundation of self-love and self-acceptance, to be able to say, “Okay, that opportunity wasn't for me.”
I think the other thing to bring into this conversation is just to say that life and careers are long. I think there's like a fixation, especially for women, on youth and your “best years” or your most “golden years” of your career. You see these people who have made it to Broadway in college. The truth of the matter is that that is not going to be everyone's journey. Lots of people don't actually make it to the pinnacle of their careers until they're in their 50s, 60s - like, it's very normal for that to happen.
Amy: Right, and success is just as wonderful and amazing at age 70 or 80 as it is at age 20, but we don't talk about that in our culture.
Hayley: Exactly. There's a lot of pressure - being in my 20s, I know a lot of other 20-somethings that are having all this fear around, like, “I'm running out of time!” And I'm like, “Y'all…” If your Broadway debut is tomorrow, if it's next week, amazing. But in 10 years is also great.
Amy: Right - in 20, in 30…
Hayley: You know, it may not be where you feel like - in 20, in 30, in 40, in 50 - whatever…
Amy: Never!
Hayley: Never as well. We've talked about success before and said it's important to define what your idea of success is, but I think that that is really helpful around rejection, too.
Amy: And it’s important to know that that can change over time, and that that's okay. Another thing that I want to introduce into this conversation is just the importance of having a balance in your life. A lot of times in theatre, especially when we're just getting started, it feels like, “Oh, if I throw all of myself into this career and spend every waking moment doing theatre, working on my craft, going to classes, going to auditions, then I'll be successful.”
Something that makes it easier to deal with rejection is having things that fulfill you that are not related to theatre.
Hayley: That's such a good point.
Amy: Having hobbies, which feels unheard of. And let me say, I am a work in progress on this. I am very bad at having things that are outside of my creative work that are true hobbies.
Hayley: Hobbies don't have to be, like, sewing, okay? Like, you could do that. That's great. But hobbies could also be spending time with your friends, going out to restaurants every now and then.
Amy: Taking a walk in nature.
Hayley: Right, exactly. I definitely, growing up, was an intense, obsessed theatre kid. That's all I wanted to do ever. And it took me until this time in my life to figure out, “Okay, I think I need more things.” I do have some hobbies, like I love yoga, travel, things like that. But for me, the key to balance has really been about structuring my life so that I'm prioritizing all of the things I value. I value my relationship with my partner, I value my friendships, I value making sure that I have food on the table. Like, it's a balance of values. Marlo Hunter has a really good thing for this.
Amy: The life map.
Hayley: Yeah, the life map. This idea around making sure that your life is categorically balanced enough so that you don't feel like your career is taking up way too much of your energy and then you don't have any energy for the other things that matter to you.
Amy: Right, we were talking about wearing different hats in our career - we also wear different hats in our lives, and we have different aspects of our identities that are important to us. Like, I am an artist. I am also, I'm a wife, I'm a mother, I'm a person who likes to read, I'm a person with a body that I need to take care of, I'm a person who likes to eat yummy food and sometimes make yummy food, and I'm a person who lives in New York City and needs to pay for my apartment. These are all aspects of who I am.
And if I'm living a life that is just all about career, career, career all the time, then 1) my life is going to be way off balance and those other parts of my identity are going to suffer. And 2) my career is going to suffer too, because I am putting this outsized emphasis on it, which makes all of those rejections and successes feel like they're much more important than they need to be in the grand scheme of my life and all of my identities.
Hayley: Yeah. If you haven't done this yet, listeners, there's this values exercise. It's basically just a list of different words that can describe values. And you circle all of the ones that resonate with you, and then you narrow it down to five or six of them. And then those are sort of your core values. And you think about your life, and when you are making decisions around opportunities, when you are looking at rejection, when you are looking at challenging things that you have to deal with - if you look at that next to your values and think about how it does or does not fit in with those things…
I’ve found it to be extremely helpful in just keeping me centered and forward-thinking in the way that I want to be about my life. That has been really helpful for me. I value passion. I value community. I value vision. I value adventure. I have a list of them that I come back to that help me check in with myself and realign when I get all stressed out by all the many out-of-control elements that exist in our industry and in our lives.
Amy: Yeah, I think that's wonderful. There's so many conflicting responsibilities and priorities that are pushing and pulling at us, and it can be helpful to have a guiding light through that of “This is who I am. These are my values and my priorities.”
Hayley: For writers out there, you've probably heard the adage about - once you know what your musical is about, put that on a sticky note and stick it on your wall and look at it every day while you're writing your show to make sure the things that you're writing are actually in line with that main idea. I sort of think of this the same way.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. For a lot of people, a feeling that comes up a lot with rejection is shame. There can be a feeling, when you get rejected from something, to hide it and not talk to anyone about it. And just like, feel all your bad feelings and tell yourself all of these internalized messages about how you're not worthy because you didn't get this thing.
Hayley: Mmhmm, that’s real.
Amy: I think building community around rejection and around your career in general is really helpful for dealing with that. Because when you speak a rejection out loud or speak a negative feeling out loud, it takes away its power. And so, being able to go to a trusted friend and say, “Hey, I applied for this opportunity and I didn't get it.” And to be able to have a conversation with them about it - to me, it just feels like you have a lot more ownership of it than if I'm just sitting in my room…
Hayley: Feeling sad about it.
Amy: Right! Feeling sad about it and also feeling like…
Hayley: Shameful?
Amy: Like, “Oh, if anyone found out about this, then they would know that I'm a fraud.” It's very connected to imposter syndrome, I think.
Hayley: Yeah. Speaking of imposter syndrome, Amy and I, off-season, discovered this amazing video…
Amy: Oh my gosh, yes! So we'll link it in the show notes. Highly recommend this video. So this was Reshma Saujani, who is the founder of Girls Who Code. And she spoke at the Smith College commencement ceremony this past spring. She did this amazing talk about imposter syndrome and basically breaking it down and exposing it as a tool of the patriarchy. Which, for me, if I know that something is a tool of the patriarchy, it takes away its power, right? Like, oh, that's just a tool of the patriarchy. Like, I don't have to care about that because I don’t subscribe to the patriarchy.
Hayley: Like, why would I give my energy to the patriarchy?
Amy: Exactly. But it was a really, really powerful reframe of imposter syndrome that highlighted that it's a distraction from our work and not something that we need to be focusing all our attention on.
So I think I can say that in this season of Women & Theatre, we are going to be giving imposter syndrome - we are going to be acknowledging its effects on our lives, but we are going to be giving it a lot less space because it is a tool of the patriarchy and we will treat it as such. Thank you, Reshma Saujani.
Hayley: Yeah, so definitely check that out if you haven't seen it already. It's amazing.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Let's tie this conversation up a little bit. We've been talking about different tools and different reframes for how to deal with rejection. Is there anything else that you want to talk about?
Amy: To sum up everything we've been saying, rejection is a reality of the theatre industry and really of anyone who works a gig-to-gig freelance life. And so it's something that, as Hayley said, that we need to learn to make friends with. Or if not make friends with it, at least make a space for it in our lives so it doesn’t destroy us.
Hayley: Yeah, like a neutrality.
Amy: Yeah, exactly. We've shared some helpful tips today about how we deal with that, and I hope that they're helpful to our listeners as well.
Hayley: I'd love to know, too - talk to us about how you deal with rejection. I want to hear.
Amy: Yeah, I’d love to hear tips.
Hayley: Yeah, if you have other tips to share, let us know! Talk to us on social media, send us an email, whatever. We'd love to chat with you.
Amy: The more that we talk about it together, the less power rejection has over us. So let's talk about it. Let's keep the conversation going.
Hayley: Yeah. Thank you for this conversation, Amy. I appreciate you as always. And it was really beautiful to talk about something that I think affects all of us.
Amy: Yeah, I'm very into shining a light on the darkness, and I think that's what we're doing here. And speaking it into the world, and I really hope that it's helpful to our listeners. So this was a wonderful conversation. Thank you, Hayley. And thank you, listeners.
Hayley: Thank you, Amy. Thank you, listeners. Talk to you soon.
Amy: We love you, you're beautiful!
Hayley/Amy: Bye!
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: And Amy Andrews. If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show is written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
