S2E4: Scarcity and Abundance
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk about how scarcity and abundance play out in the theatre industry and the hard work of moving from a culture of “This is the way it’s always been done” to a culture that sees the possibilities in using resources efficiently and creatively. As a bonus, we celebrate Women’s History Month by spotlighting pioneer lighting designer Jean Rosenthal. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Women’s History Month Spotlight: Jean Rosenthal
Kayla Davion - Season 1 interview
Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert
Thanks for listening!
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, welcome to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We're your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cup of coffee and join us as we talk to people in the theatre industry about their experiences with womanhood.
Hayley: On the pod, we interview people with different gender identities, from different backgrounds, with varying levels of industry experience and professional roles.
Amy: Our goal is to build community and pool our collective wisdom to break down the barriers we continue to face.
(Music)
Amy: It’s Women’s History Month! Each week this month, we’re spotlighting a woman in theatre history that you should know about.
Hayley: This week, let’s talk about Jean Rosenthal! Jean Rosenthal was a Broadway lighting designer. In addition to designing over fifty Broadway shows including the original productions of West Side Story, Hello Dolly, Fiddler on the Roof and countless others – Jean is known for helping to formalize the role of the theatrical lighting designer in the industry. In the early 20th century, lighting was usually the responsibility of the set designer and an electrician. Jean believed the lighting could be a career unto itself and led the way for many others to follow in her footsteps.
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people! We are so excited to talk to you today, and today we have a very special topic to talk about, which is scarcity versus abundance. This is something that Amy and I chat about all the time - how it plays out in our lives, how we see it playing out in others' lives, how it's a systemic issue, how it affects individuals, all these things.
Amy: Yeah, scarcity and abundance - we see them playing out in all sorts of ways in our own lives and in the industry as a whole. To get on the same page about what we mean when we use those terms, scarcity culture is basically looking at the world as if there are a finite and limited amount of resources available. For example, if you are an actor who's auditioning for things, the mindset that there's one role available and, like, 500 people auditioning for it and only one can get the role. Which - that is true sometimes.
An abundance mindset, on the other hand, is basically seeing the world as having infinite resources or abundant resources. So, looking at an audition where there are 500 people for one role and kind of widening your worldview and saying, “Okay, and in this same studio, there are 10 other auditions going on for 10 other shows, and there are all of these roles and there are enough roles for all the people. It's just a matter of connecting the people with the right opportunities.”
Hayley: I just wanna be really clear in this conversation that we, as individuals in this space, recognize that the fact of the matter is that there are a scarcity of resources. And we do wanna address that in this conversation and also figure out what are ways that we can view things as being more abundant. Because we have found that that perspective is actually more helpful as we go through life and go through this industry because it allows you to be more creative and build better relationships, which lead to more opportunities in the space. So…
Amy: Absolutely.
Hayley: Just wanted to like, give that disclaimer. There are a scarcity of resources, and we're aware of that. And also the mindset shift can really help. So…
Amy: Yeah. Well, and what's interesting, I think, in the theatre industry is that yes, there's a lot of scarcity of resources that is real and that does exist. And so I think it's particularly unhelpful for us when we put imagined scarcity on top of the - or pretend there's scarcity when there doesn't have to be. So let's start there.
Hayley: Yeah, let's dive in.
Amy: Yeah. Let's start with how we see scarcity playing out in the theatre industry. The example that I mentioned is a big one that I see - a scarcity of not just acting roles but opportunities, a scarcity of opportunities for creatives. A scarcity of financial resources that theatres have and producing companies have.
Hayley: Yeah, as an early career director and writer, I see this a lot when it comes to opportunities, especially for words people. There are lots of early career jobs for music people on music teams, like music assistant roles or assisting the music director. And there are more literal bodies needed to do copy work and do the printing and all of that stuff. When it comes to being a words person, there's usually one role for a script assistant or one role for an assistant director or something like that. If at all, because to a lot of producers, those roles are seen as nice to have and not a requirement, which is sometimes true. And so it can be very challenging to even find those opportunities.
And then when there are those opportunities…you know, Amy and I have even had the situation where we've been recommended for the same jobs. And then it's like, “Who's gonna get it?” And we don't wanna view it as competitive ‘cause like, your success is literally my success. We are in business together. We're very good friends. And also, it's a real thing that happens.
Amy: Yeah, a rising tide lifts all ships. And also…
Hayley: And also.
Amy: In a macro situation - yes, there are all of these potential opportunities that will come up and are coming up for both of us.
Hayley: Yeah, absolutely.
Amy: Which is really exciting. And in the micro space, there is this one job that we are both up for. And so of course, yes, it is competitive, you know. And so the trick, I think, is figuring out how we can navigate that as creatives in a way that is helpful for us. ‘Cause we are in an industry where we hear no all the time. Everyone, everyone hears no all the time.
Hayley: Everyone hears no all the time.
Amy: And it can be disheartening, right? It can be really, really hard to hear that. And for me, being able to step back and see the bigger, more abundant picture and look at the world in that way is a really helpful…I mean, frankly, reality check, right? Because it's real.
Hayley: Yeah, totally.
Amy: It's real that there's scarcity, and it's real that there's abundance.
Hayley: Yeah, absolutely. The other way I see it playing out too is slots in a theatre season. Like, if they're gonna do one new musical, then the scarcity mindset would be like, “Why would they choose an unknown book writer/lyricist to feature in their season compared to a mid-career person?”
Amy: Well, development pipelines in general. We've talked before about how a lot of opportunities that are supposed to be for early-career artists - actually, those opportunities end up going to people who are more established.
Hayley: Yes. People who have been doing this for 20 years are applying for the same opportunities, because there are only so many development opportunities. And what you're speaking to is labeling something as early-career when it's actually meant for someone who's mid-career.
Amy: Yeah. It's come up in many, many, many of our Women & Theatre interviews that there is a scarcity of opportunities available specifically for early-career writers, early-career directors, early-career producers. And so those are some gaps that I know you and I would love to see filled with new development opportunities.
Hayley: Yeah. And there are awesome people out there who are doing it. There's a director who I work with who is actively building observerships into the shows. Like, she's going to producers and saying “There are so many people who are excited about this show who we can give opportunities to.” And that's amazing. And also, I wish that those pipelines were being built more by producing bodies more systemically.
So we just had a really cool conversation about how scarcity plays out in the theatre industry in general, but how do you find that it's especially hurtful for women and other underrepresented communities?
Amy: Oof. Yeah. This is something that comes up a lot in our conversations, huh? We as an industry have been having a lot of really hard conversations in the last few years about representation and inclusivity and diversity, and unfortunately, I think in a scarcity culture, the way that often plays out is through tokenism. And through saying, like, “Okay, I'm programming a season, let me make sure that I have one piece by a woman and one piece by a Black person,” right?
Hayley: Mm-hmm. And then it becomes very performative in how it's being approached.
Amy: Well, it becomes performative. And like, is it creating opportunities for people who maybe wouldn't have had those before? Yes. Is it actually shifting the culture? No, I don't think it really is.
Hayley: Yeah. Right. And it's also - if they're choosing one woman playwright and one Black person, they're pulling from the people who have - despite all of their struggles, perhaps - risen to the top of that. And then it literally puts us in competition with each other too, in that sense.
Amy: And it's problematic too because, as we've talked about a lot in Women & Theatre, we would like to see the industry moving toward a space where it's not just one woman's perspective or one Black person's perspective.
Hayley: Correct. Well, there's so much pressure then to represent a whole community of things. None of these groups are a monolith. The intersectionality of it is being lost a lot of the time in those cases as well.
Amy: I think it was in our amazing conversation with Kayla Davion in Season 1…Kayla was saying, let's have a show that represents this type of diversity and another one that represents this type of - and another one that represents this. And all of these shows, no single one represents the whole world.
Hayley: Exactly. Yeah.
Amy: But taken together, collectively, we can. We just have to think bigger than one slot for a woman and one slot for a Black person, right?
Hayley: Yeah, absolutely. And I do think it can be really hard to not think in a competitive mindset when the system is putting you in a position where you're constantly competing. For actors, I know this plays out all the time. You show up to auditions, you're with a room full of people where it's easy to think that you're interchangeable in that. So I think that that's very harmful too.
Amy: Well, and for producers too, I think it plays out, especially at the top level. I mean, if you look at Broadway, there's what, like 40 Broadway theatres. And producers of all sorts of shows are competing for spots in that small group of theatres.
For me, part of getting away from scarcity mindset is imagining other alternatives. The road for every show doesn't have to end at Broadway. That doesn't have to be the end goal, and it shouldn't be for a lot of shows. And also, when that's where a significant amount of the money and the resources and the clout, the fame are going, that makes it hard to imagine other alternatives.
Hayley: Absolutely.
Amy: So, Hayley, can you talk to me about abundance - how you think about abundance, and what you think is important about it?
Hayley: Yeah. It's really hard. I mean, I'll be very honest that I'm still working on this. I think what helps me is recognizing that we all have something very unique and different to offer. No one can write the same show that I'm gonna write. You know what I mean? We might have the same premise, you know, the same everything. And we would write completely different things, because we have different points of view. And so for me, it's building the confidence in myself to go, “I have something unique to offer.” So not to let the perceived lack of opportunities prevent me from trying.
The other thing I think about a lot is - you should not be the person who's stopping you from going after the opportunities you want. Even if you think that there's a hundred people who are more qualified than you. You only miss the shots that you don't take or whatever. It's a sports reference, woohoo.
Amy: Yeah, you miss all the shots you don't take.
Hayley: Thank you, yeah. And in terms of practical applications, I do a lot of exercises to help me with this. Like, I'm writing my affirmations every morning in my journal. Not because I'm like, “Woo woo, I am incredible” or whatever.
Amy: You are incredible.
Hayley: I am incredible. I am incredible, listeners. But like, no, because I personally struggle so hard with self-doubt, and that's something that gets me. And so, I have to train my brain to not go to the place of like, “I'm not good enough. This is never gonna be perfect.” Because musicals and plays are never gonna be perfect. And the messiness is - I believe that messiness is beautiful, and also I have been conditioned by society to try to be perfect. And so I have to do a lot of homework for myself to make sure that I'm not out here being self-deprecating all the time.
The other thing is, it is so helpful to be in the practice - whether or not you feel competitive - in the practice of hyping up your friends and lifting each other up.
Amy: Yes.
Hayley: And that is something that really does help, where the more that you do it, the more natural it becomes and the less likely it is that when your friend gets an opportunity, you're gonna think, “Why don't I have that?” And the more likely it is that you're gonna just be like, “I am so freaking happy for Amy that she got this opportunity.” And it's really fun to do. It's so fun to celebrate your friends.
And here is the truth of the matter - we said it at the beginning of the podcast, a rising tide does lift all boats. In this industry, so much is dependent on your relationships and all of these weird lines that you don't even know are out there. I've had people recommend me for jobs that like, I didn't even know they liked me. You just don't know the type of impact that you're having. And so you might as well speak your friends' names into rooms, and that will come back on you too.
It makes you look good to lift up other people. And not only does it make you look good, it makes you feel good, at least in my experience. It's so much more enriching for me to be excited for Amy about an opportunity that she got than to spend my energy being upset that it's not me. It is hard, but if you practice it enough, that will become your neurological pathway.
Amy: Yeah. Well, and it's also connected to the idea that what you put out into the world is what you get back. I've seen both types of people in the theatre industry, you know - the ones who are all about lifting up other people and saying, “Oh, my friend is brilliant, you should talk to them about this.” And being helpful people, right? And connecting people with the people who can help them make their creative dreams a reality.
And then I've seen the people who are so precious about their work, about their opportunities, don't wanna share the wealth, or get into this really negative place of being resentful of the opportunities that other people get. And I know that the former is the way that I would rather be. And I would rather surround myself - when I'm picking my professional collaborators and when I'm in the position to give people opportunities, that's who I'm looking for, is the people who are not just in it for themselves but who are in it for the community, and who recognize that being in theatre is being in community. I think that's really important.
Hayley: Absolutely. I'm going back to building relationships again, because I could talk about that forever, but it's connected. If you view people as chess pieces to getting to where you wanna be, that's not helpful. If you're viewing relationships as transactional, as opposed to, like…
Amy: Relational.
Hayley: Relational. Yeah, exactly. So I wanna ask you then, Amy, as we're talking about these different ways that we think about abundance in the space and different kind of strategies and actions we can take, what are the challenges? What's the pushback you feel when you put those things into practice?
Amy: Well, as we've said, there is some real-life scarcity in the theatre industry. There is a scarcity of resources, particularly financial resources. And musical theatre in particular is a very expensive art form because it is so collaborative.
Hayley: It requires so many people.
Amy: So many people, yeah, who come together to make a project a reality. So yeah, there is that scarcity. There's scarcity of time. I mean, coming out of the last few years and the pandemic, there's a scarcity of audience, right? There's a scarcity of people who are comfortable being indoors in a room with people singing at them, right?
Hayley: Yeah, and also there are people who've forgotten why they love going to the theatre. I think that that's also something. I think that theatres aren't necessarily doing a great job of bringing people back to the theatre and reminding people. In terms of accessibility, in terms of marketing strategies, in a lot of different ways, there's room to grow.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think also, unfortunately, sometimes when we talk about scarcity and abundance, it goes into this weird toxic positivity place.
Hayley: Oh, yeah. Which is not where we're going. Nope.
Amy: Right. And it does - it makes me feel like I want to be very careful even in talking about this issue. Because I'm not gonna say to someone who is struggling to pay their rent, “Oh, you need to just have an abundance mindset and then it will all be okay.”
Hayley: No, absolutely not.
Amy: That's - I think, Hayley, you and I have both been in that position as struggling artists. And there are real needs that we have as human beings, for security, for housing, for food. And those things are real, and like, changing your mindset might help, but it's not a catch-all solution.
Hayley: No, and honestly, I think recognizing privilege in this too, right?
Amy: 100%.
Hayley: Like, it's a lot easier to have an abundance mindset when you have additional resources at your disposal.
Amy: When you have your basic needs met.
Hayley: Correct. We both know those people in the theatre who, you know, they don't have to pay for their apartment necessarily. Whether it's generational wealth or they have really supportive parents or they have a partner who is bringing in a lot of abundance for them in that way.
Amy: Right, and it can be easy - for those of us who don't have that kind of privilege - I mean, Hayley, you and I both have other kinds of privilege.
Hayley: We definitely do, yes.
Amy: But we don't have those specific kinds of privilege. And it's an easy road to go down to be resentful of those who seem to have things handed to them. For me, it's important to keep in mind that everybody has their struggles. Everybody, everybody, everybody has their struggles. And when I have things that are easier for me, I'm gonna celebrate those things because so much of life is hard. And so when I see other people having things coming easily to them - it's a stretch, but I really aspire to celebrate those things for them because I know that other things are hard for them.
A thing that is part of my personal abundance mindset is a concept that I picked up from Elizabeth Gilbert's book Big Magic, which we talk about a lot ‘cause it's such a good book.
Hayley: It's so good.
Amy: So she talks about the phenomenon - which happens all the time, right? - where you have an idea and you kind of ponder it and you don't do anything with it. And then five years down the line, somebody else has the same idea and strikes it big. And you're like, “Oh man, that was my idea! They stole my idea!” Like, whether you've had a conversation with them about it or whether you don't even know the person.
But how she talks about it is basically that ideas are these beings that kind of bounce around from person to person until they find the person who is willing to care for them and to put in the time to make them a reality. And so, if that's not you at that particular time, then great, that idea is gonna go on to somebody else.
But what that means, how that plays out for me in my thinking about abundance is that if there's an opportunity that comes up and I don't get it and somebody else gets it, then that wasn't my opportunity to begin with.
Hayley: It wasn't meant for you.
Amy: It was meant for that person. And that's fine. Not every opportunity is meant for me, and not every opportunity is meant for that person. For me, it helps to think about it in that way because it means it's not about anything that I did wrong or that I could have done better. It's just that that opportunity wasn't meant for me. It wasn't my opportunity. Maybe the next one will be my opportunity.
Hayley: Totally. And I think also this is an area in which the binary of things you did right or things you did wrong, or things that you have at your disposal or that you don't have at your disposal is also not particularly helpful either. Because the reason that you don't get a role, for example, is so rarely your actual skillset or anything within your control. It's so much more often the stupid stuff.
Amy: What they need.
Hayley: Like, these two are the same height, and that's really helpful for symmetry. It sucks to say that because I don't wanna diminish anyone's artistry. But sometimes - for me at least, thinking about these things as - you can control what you can control, and making peace with the fact that there are a lot - there are so many things that you can't control. And so, rather than turning it back on yourself and going like, “Oh, I did this wrong.” Or “This skill that I have is not good enough.”
Amy: Right, and we're so good at saying those things to ourselves.
Hayley: Oh, absolutely. Literally daily, I'm like, “Amy, I don't suck, right?” This is something else that I wanna speak to about abundance, is just building your community of people who can give you the perspective when you need it. Like, who are your perspective people? For me, Amy is like my big sister of perspective because sometimes I'll be like, “Oh my god. This person's making their Broadway debut. Why am I not making my Broadway debut?” And Amy is like, “Whoa, sister, slow down. You know, you are doing so good.”
Amy: You do the same for me. We reality check each other, which is one of the many things that's beautiful about this relationship.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: ‘Cause it's important, it is. It's important to lift each other up because we can't always lift ourselves up.
Hayley: Well, and this is something else too. Don't gatekeep what you're going through from your friends. Find the people who you actually can lean on for those things, and do it. It's important to have boundaries, and it's useful to have people in your life who you know you can go to, you know are gonna be happy for you…
Amy: Gotta find your people! So I wanna talk, Hayley, about what we can do. What can we do to…
Hayley: Make this better?
Amy: Yeah, what can we do to make it better? I wanna talk about what we can do to make the theatre industry a more abundant space in ways that are helpful. I think it's about what we can do as individuals to help ourselves and our friends, and then I think it's about what are collective actions we can take as a community to make the entire industry a more abundant space.
Hayley: Yeah. I think as individuals, it's a lot of what we were already talking about, like speaking your friends' names into rooms. If you know somebody is really right for something, connect those people. Building a culture of that kind of abundance mindset and of sharing information and not gatekeeping, and transparency, which is really important too.
Amy: And for us, I mean, we feel very strongly - as we are living in this project and this podcast - about sharing information and passing information and opportunities along to those who are coming up behind us. That's something that's really, really important to us. Because we have benefited so greatly, and continue to benefit, from those who are ahead of us who are reaching back and extending a hand to pull us along in our journey.
Hayley: Well, yeah, that's one of the reasons that as part of this project, we include people at every step of their career journey as well, along with the other reasons that we've talked about. But that's one of the reasons.
Amy: Right, ‘cause we all have something valuable to share, and so we should share it. Let's share it.
Hayley: Exactly. Yeah. So to me, that's a big step that we can all sort of do.
Amy: Yeah. And it's self-work too. It's making commitments to yourself to - when you start feeling that competitiveness and that scarcity mindset creep in - to like, reality check yourself. Like we said, there are very real competitive and scarce elements to this industry. But I find it really helpful to reality check myself and say, “Does this scarcity actually exist? To what extent does it actually exist? And to what extent am I making it up in my mind or having other people in the industry dictate to me what opportunities do and don't exist?”
Hayley: Totally! Because you know what you can do? If you're trying to make your way into more rooms, you can always ask.
Amy: Yeah. And as writers trying to get our work produced, we can always get together and put together a scrappy reading with what we've got, you know?
Hayley: Absolutely.
Amy: That's a thing that I think abundance is helpful for, is just opening up your mind to the resources that you do have at your disposal. Thinking about what you do have instead of thinking about what you don't have.
Hayley: That’s great, yeah. Tangible exercise, friends: Make a list of every contact. If you don't have this already, make a list of every contact, person, that you've ever come across. When you're looking into fundraising, or you're looking into whatever, you don't think about that person from high school who was your friend and liked musical theatre. Make a list of the people that you wanna include too, and take genuine interest in what people are up to. Again, it's not about transactional relationships, it's about, okay, where can we help each other?
Amy: Well, and when you're talking to people - anyone - catching up with a friend who you haven't seen in a couple years, or riding on the subway and striking up a conversation with a stranger… When you're talking with people, talk about your work, talk about what you're doing, and see what lights up in their eyes. And keep that in your mind so that you can keep them updated, because they're interested.
Hayley: Correct. In terms of collective action, for those who have more…power…
Amy: …resources?
Hayley: Yeah. What are some things that they can do? What are some things that we can do with them? How can we make the space more abundant? It's a big question, I don't know the answer.
Amy: It is a big question. And these are definitely concepts that have come up before in other Women & Theatre conversations, but I think the more we can think creatively about every aspect of this industry, the better. I think we need to be thinking more creatively and innovatively about funding sources, about dispersing funds, creating more opportunities for people who are just getting started. Thinking creatively about how to do things using fewer resources, right? Like, if we have a pool of money that's meant to develop one show and we can think creatively and figure out how to make that same pool of money support the development of three shows, that's amazing, you know?
Hayley: Totally.
Amy: And that's what we're good at as theatre people. A thing that we excel at is using resources efficiently. So I would like to see more of that happening at the highest levels of decision making.
Hayley: Yeah, I agree with you. I also think… We talked about barter culture in an episode, and I think if we're talking about bartering with other industries and other communities, what can theatre people and theatre as an industry provide for other industries that they have abundance of? If somebody has an abundance of space, you know, it costs a lot of money to have space to rehearse, to perform, things like that. Is there some kind of partnership we could do with, like, real estate? If there’s a way that we could come in and support other industries’ endeavors with our skills, and that they could then provide us with the resources that we needed in return, if there's a symbiotic relationship that can happen there, that's something that's coming to mind.
Amy: Yeah. For me, one of the biggest indicators of scarcity culture is the phrase, “This is the way it's always been done.”
Hayley: Oh. Oh my god, that's so good, because I was thinking about this too.
Amy: Yeah. And it's coming up in what you're saying, because I think there are very established ways of doing business, both in the theatre industry and in other industries.
Hayley: And in general.
Amy: Yeah, in general. And it creates false senses of scarcity, because we say, you know, “Our season has always had three slots for shows, so that is the number of shows we can do, and that is it. That is a limit.” But that's a false limit that you're setting. And maybe there's a way to get an extra two shows in there or something. Or maybe there's a way to partner with a corporation or a local company.
Hayley: That idea of like, “We know how to do this successfully.” But to me, the model right now where investors don't recoup until sometimes 10 years after the thing was on Broadway…
Amy: Well, and only 20% of shows on Broadway recoup.
Hayley: At all, right? To me, that's a broken model, because you're asking people to invest in something that they know is a poor investment, basically, from a financial perspective. We could go on and on about all the finance stuff, but my point is I think we should be looking for other methods, because it's not working ideally for artists right now. And it's also not working ideally for producers or for investors, you know.
Amy: Right. Well, and if scarcity culture is saying, “This is the way it's always been done, this is the best we can do,” then abundance culture is saying, “We can do better.”
Hayley: “We can do more.”
Amy: “We can work together and figure out ways to be constantly improving.” My amazing gym, Mark Fisher Fitness, they have a motto that is, “We strive to be 1% better every day.” If the theatre industry strives to be 1% percent better every day, then who knows the amazing… Like, we could grow by leaps and bounds. We could create opportunities for everybody, you know.
Hayley: And like, can we build more theatres? Can the government put aside some money and could we build some more Broadway theatres? So much of our industry ends up coming down to real estate. Can we work with real estate to make things better? I would like to see that happen.
Amy: Great! It's funny - with you and with anyone else I talk to in the theatre industry, when we start talking about - like imagining what the theatre industry could be, sparks start flying. It's so exciting!
Hayley: Like, so many things happen.
Amy: Because when you allow yourself to think outside of the way things have always been, we are really creative people. We can come up with all sorts of cool solutions to make things better. So let's do that. Let's do more of that.
Hayley: More of that. I love you, and I love this conversation.
Amy: Yes!
Hayley: Let us know in the comments if you have other ways that scarcity plays out in your life.
Amy: Yeah, what are your struggles? What are your solutions? What are your ideas? We wanna hear them.
Hayley: We wanna hear from you, so let us know. And thank you so much for this beautiful conversation, Amy, I love you a lot.
Amy: Thank you, and thank you listeners for coming along for the ride!
Hayley: Bye everybody.
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: And Amy Andrews. If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show is written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
