S5E5: Victoria Detres
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk with producer and RISE Program Manager Victoria Detres about embracing humanity through storytelling, creating a culture of care in the theatre industry and beyond, building sustainable theatrical spaces that are inclusive of artists from underrepresented groups, and more. We also highlight Hannah Cowley as part of our Women’s History Month Playwrights You Should Know series, in partnership with Expand the Canon. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Guest: Victoria Detres
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Check out Victoria’s mini-interview - from the Women & Theatre Season 4 RISE bonus series
Women’s History Month:
Expand the Canon - A Bold Stroke for a Husband by Hannah Cowley
Trailblazers of the Week:
Team Women & Theatre: Beth Rosebrook, Sylvia Blair, Courtney Seyl, Ally Varitek
Announcements:
Join us for virtual co-working on April 8 at 11am ET on Zoom!
Stay tuned for Women & Theatre Podcast Season 5 Part 2, coming June 3!
Guest Bio:
Victoria Detres (she/her) is a Puerto Rican and Albanian producer born and raised in New York City. She is passionate about building a platform for contemporary theatre’s innovative voices, particularly those of the global majority. While highlighting these voices, Victoria also aims to dismantle the structures that do not allow for access and restructure for equity and accessibility. Formerly, Victoria has worked as the Producing Assistant at Octopus Theatricals and Associate Producer at Broadway & Beyond Theatricals. Victoria is one of the co-founders of the RISE Theatre Directory, in partnership with Lin-Manuel Miranda, the Miranda Family Fund, and Maestra Music. Currently, Victoria leads RISE Theatre as the Program Manager. Additional credits include THE KITE RUNNER (The Hayes Theatre, Associate Producer), SOCIETY Theatre Collective’s productions of Mona Mansour’s BEGINNING DAYS OF TRUE JUBILATION and Emily Zemba’s THE STRANGERS CAME TODAY (The New Ohio, Line Producer). Learn more at www.victoriadetres.com.
Find Victoria Online:
Check out Victoria’s RISE Theatre Directory profile
Connect with Victoria on LinkedIn
Follow Victoria and RISE Theatre on Instagram
Thanks for listening!
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The Women & Theatre Podcast is created and produced by Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews. Please like, comment, subscribe, follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and consider making a donation to support our work. Thank you for listening!
Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello beautiful people, and welcome back to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cozy beverage and join us as we talk to women and gender-expansive folks about their experiences at the intersection of womanhood and theatre.
Hayley: On the pod, we cultivate open conversations across identities and professional roles…
Amy: We look for opportunities to support one another in growing our careers…
Hayley: And we pool our collective wisdom to build the equitable theatrical spaces of the future.
(Music)
Hayley: Hey Amy, good to see you!
Amy: Hi Hayley, it's wonderful to see you too! Yay, here we are!
Hayley: I know, here we are. So how you doing today?
Amy: Um, I am doing pretty good. The sun is shining, it's really freaking cold out, but I'm, like, working on projects right now that I'm excited about, and this is one of them. So that's how I'm doing. How are you doing today?
Hayley: Fab. I'm hanging in there, is the answer. I'm holding it together. There are big big-picture things that I wish I could change, but I'm trying to focus on the positive. And being here with you always helps with that.
So why don't we get started with our Roses and Thorns, Amy? What's your Rose and what's your Thorn for this week?
Amy: Let me see, my Rose for this week is… I'm thinking about some exciting ideas this week. It's sort of coming out of our Women & Theatre In-person Cozy Networking event. But also just other conversations that I've been having with folks in and out of the theatre industry about ideas around sharing of resources and…just being scrappy and resourceful in times where resources feel scarce, like they're starting to in many, many ways. And I'm just, I'm really excited and lit up by these conversations. So that's my Rose for this week.
My Thorn for this week is just ongoing health stuff with my family. I personally am healthy today, and I'm so grateful for that. This time of year, especially with a little kiddo, is just - it's really rough. It sometimes feels like one sickness leads into the next, and it just affects everything in my life, and it's not my favorite. Yeah, so that's my Thorn. What about you? What are your Rose and Thorn this week?
Hayley: My Rose is my fabulous friends and family. Just blanket statement. I'm hearing a lot of people in difficult times talking about leaning on community, and I really feel so blessed to have a community of people that I love and respect so much, who are doing the work to fight back against these systems that are trying to take away our voices, who are, personally, making me feel so special and supported and thought about, you know? That's my Rose for this week, is just spending time in gratitude, taking a look at the people in my life who I'm so lucky to share this moment in history with and this moment in my life with. I love my people.
My Thorn is the undervaluing of art in our society. I feel like we really, really need art right now more than ever to open our hearts and minds, to connect with one another, to remember that we have so much more in common than we have in difference, and that our differences also make us special and make us valuable contributors to society and to one another. And I think that, broadly, there is an undervaluing of the essential nature of art. And that pisses me off. I think that we need to change that. So that's my Thorn.
But I'm so excited for today's interview, because we are speaking to Victoria Detres, who is the Program Manager for RISE Theatre and a fabulous theatre producer, among other hats that she wears. Vic is so inspiring, y'all. I can't wait for you to hear from her. Every time I talk to her, I'm inspired. Also, if you happened to listen to our RISE series last season, you would've heard a mini-episode from Vic. So if you were clamoring for more, just like we were…
Amy: As we were, yes!
Hayley: …today is your lucky day. Yes.
Amy: Yeah, we had that little mini-interview with Victoria at the RISE Summit back in September. And we just, we finished that interview and we said, “Great, when are you coming on the podcast?”
Hayley: So we made it happen.
Amy: So here she is. We're so excited to share her with you and to chat and learn more about her. So let's get started!
(Musical transition)
Amy: But first, for Women's History Month, we've teamed up with Expand the Canon to bring you a series of Playwrights You Should Know About.
This week's playwright you should know about is Hannah Cowley. Hannah Cowley is best known for writing The Bell's Stratagem. Her first play, which she wrote in a day, was supposedly inspired by going to the theatre and telling her husband, “Well, I could write as well myself.” #Relatable! If you're thinking of producing The Taming of the Shrew, check out her play Bold Stroke for a Husband, written in 1783.
Learn more about the play and Hannah Cowley on This is a Classic, a podcast by Expand the Canon.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Victoria Detres is a Puerto Rican and Albanian producer born and raised in New York City. She's passionate about building a platform for contemporary theater's innovative voices, particularly those of the global majority. While highlighting these voices, Victoria also aims to dismantle the structures that do not allow for access and restructure for equity and accessibility.
Formerly, Victoria has worked as the Producing Assistant at Octopus Theatricals and Associate Producer at Broadway & Beyond Theatricals. Victoria is one of the co-founders of the RISE Theatre Directory, in partnership with Lin-Manuel Miranda, the Miranda Family Fund, and Maestra Music. Currently, Victoria leads RISE Theatre as the Program Manager. Victoria's additional credits include Associate Producer on The Kite Runner at the Hayes Theater and Line Producer on SOCIETY Theatre Collective’s productions of Mona Mansour’s Beginning Days of True Jubilation and Emily Zemba's The Strangers Came Today. Learn more at www.victoriadetres.com.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people! Vic, welcome to Women & Theatre.
Victoria: Thank you for having me!
Hayley: Of course! Vic, can you please share your pronouns and tell us a little bit about what you do in the theatrical spaces?
Victoria: Yeah! My pronouns are she/her. I'm a producer. I came mostly from producing, and right now, the work I do is more advocacy-based. But I am one of the co-founders and the RISE Program Manager for RISE Theatre, which is a program of Maestra Music. And essentially, we have a directory, which is serving everyone in the industry who is working in non-performing roles, but designed in mind to intentionally amplify artists who are underrepresented, so women, trans, non-binary, deaf, and disabled artists.
And then in tandem, we have our network partners, who are amazing organizations leading the work with promoting equity and accessibility in various lanes. So we create kind of a roadmap for the industry, in case you are interested in furthering your equitable work.
Amy: Amazing. Thank you, and thank you for all you do with RISE Theatre. We are a proud network partner, and it's been such a fruitful relationship so far and just growing every day.
Victoria: Thank you for that.
Amy: Yeah! Vic, what is something, anything, that's inspiring you right now?
Victoria: I think right now, it's hard to find inspiration. I think that's across the board. But when I think about what I do and the work that I do, when I meet people, that's what inspires me the most. Because sometimes, it feels so easy to feel siloed, like, “Is the work that I'm doing even relevant? Important? Like, why does it even matter?” And then you meet people who are doing work for their community, whether it's in food banks or community organizing… And just seeing the passion of people willing to always put others first, I think it's just like, that is the most essential thing.
I think we forget that community is what makes us human. Empathy is what makes us human. And I think we're actually currently in an empathy drought. I think that's kind of at the core of how we got to where we are right now, right? The lack of empathy. Empathy is actually what makes us human. So when I get to meet people, that's what's the most inspiring, just getting to hear their stories. Storytelling is the most innately human thing we can do. That’s inspiring.
Hayley: Yeah, absolutely. I was just speaking before you got on, Vic, during our pre-interview segment, about how there's a lack of understanding that art is essential to society. And I think many of us artists can relate to that idea. But I think when you're talking about the drought of empathy, I just want to connect those two ideas, because I think that storytelling is one of the best ways that we can exercise our empathy.
Victoria: That's exactly right.
Amy: Absolutely, couldn’t agree more.
Hayley: One of the most radical things we can do in moments like this is lean into joy. So let's do that. Let's do that, and let's do our flash round of questions. So I'm going to start you off, Vic, with if you were an animal, what would you be?
Victoria: I think I would be either an aquatic animal or a bird of some sort. I'm going to out myself, I've become a bird watcher. Not like legitimately, but I have a balcony, and I'll just sit out there and be like, “Wow, birds are amazing.” And I'm not talking about the pigeons. I have, like, cardinals in the back, and then I have these morning doves that come by. So I love watching birds. They can run away at any time, and I love the idea of having that freedom.
But then I'm like, dolphins are so smart and so cool. And I used to be obsessed with them as a child. I feel the most when I'm, like, by the ocean and by the sea, I think that's part of my heritage as well. So I feel like I would definitely be an aquatic animal or in the sky, because I'm also from the mountains in my heritage. So it's like, something between those two.
Amy: What is your weirdest hobby? It can be birdwatching.
Victoria: I think I already outed myself. I think it's birdwatching.
Amy: I mean, that's fine. That works. (laughter)
Hayley: What quote or mantra is speaking to you in this moment?
Victoria: Okay, I actually have this on my wall, because I haven't taken it down since I heard it, but I think it just, it resonates all the time. It says: “Failure isn't fatal, but hesitation might be.” If you are someone with chronic and generalized anxiety, hello! But so much do you fear, like, what hasn't even come to fruition. Right?
So it's like… I think in this moment, it's so easy to feel like silence is an easy way out, but that is hesitation. And it's like, when we’re actually silent, we're being complicit. So it's a nice little mantra to be like, “Sometimes you gotta try the scariest things, because that's what pushes you.” And then when you hesitate, you're actually hesitating and not betting on yourself in a way that I think needs to be kind of, like, thrown out the window. You need to bet on yourself all the time.
Amy: I love that. What's your favorite musical?
Victoria: Okay, so I have two. I have Once, because that was my first-ever Broadway musical. I love depressing. Like, I love when a show doesn't wrap up with a bow, because I'm like, “That's actually the most realistic to life.” But then I also love In the Heights, because that was one of the first shows in which I actually saw myself. I'm a born and raised New Yorker. It was a love letter to New York in a way that is actually really authentic. It actually encompasses the general population of New York City. So those two are my favorites.
Hayley: Vic, what’s your song of the moment?
Victoria: What is my song of the moment? So I was in the grocery store and you hear, like, when they're playing like, one of those easy listening…
Hayley: Like smooth jazz?
Victoria: No…
Amy: My grocery store is playing, like, pop songs from when I was in high school and college, and it's delightful.
Victoria: Exactly!
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: Okay, got it, got it.
Victoria: So it got me on this weird tangent where they were playing, like, The Script, you know, “The Man Who Can't Be Moved…”
Hayley: Yes!
Victoria: And then I was like, “Yeah, that's such a vibe.” So then I made it a Spotify playlist, and then I was like, “This is great music.” But then I realized I love the song “Breathe (2 AM)”, I forgot who sings it.
Amy: I love that song! Anna Nalick?
Victoria: I think so, yeah.
Hayley: (sings)
Amy: Yes. Oh, I love that song. What a vibe.
Victoria: Yeah, it’s like, it’s such a vibe. It's, like, weirdly romantic but also depressing. So that's my song of the moment, which is so random.
Amy: What a great song. Yeah.
Hayley: No, I love it. Thank you for sharing.
Amy: I love that choice.
Hayley: I really appreciate the vulnerability to step into that.
Victoria: Thank you, that took a lot out of me.
Hayley: Now that we are warmed up with that, let's get into the meat of this interview. So how did you come to theatre in the first place, Vic? What's your story?
Victoria: How did I come to theatre? I think most of us were probably little children being like, “I want to be on Broadway!” or, like, watching musicals. I used to be obsessed with Annie, like, that was my movie. I think it's the ‘80s - there's a very distinct difference between which Annie is a good one.
And I always wanted to work on Broadway or, like, work in theatre, like, I had interest in it. And I was fortunate enough that, in my elementary school, every year you had to do a show. So at the end of the year, there was always one performance. I really loved it. My parents were like, “Okay, cool.” And throughout life, I was always doing theatre programs, but I was always kind of on the outside of - like, my teachers didn't know where to place me. I was never cast as the ingenue. I was never going to be the leading lady. And then I was also kind of cast in kind of problematic tropes. I was always like, “Is this for me?” But I stuck with it.
And then when I went to college, I was having a crisis of confidence of, like, “What is my role in this?” And I had done everything. I had done writing. I had done directing. And I did all of that, even in college. I still didn't have a single lane that I lived in. So I was like, “I love theatre. I'm majoring in it. I don't know what the hell that means.”
And fortunately, my senior year, we did a residency with Tectonic Theatre Project, where they taught us about their devising, which is Moment Work. And I was kind of living in that lane of “everyman,” doing all the things that I was doing. So I was kind of helping our director, I was one of the writers on the piece that we produced, and then I was actually kind of acting as a producer, and then essentially also an actor.
And then post-graduation, I was like, “Okay, I'm going to be an actor, I'm going to be a writer. I'm going to do both of these things.” And my first interview out of college, I met with the executive director of a small nonprofit called The Play Company. And he was like, “I actually think you're a producer, and we have a producing track if you're interested.” I was so desperate for a job, so I said, “Yeah, sure. Okay, whatever.”
Hayley: You’re like, “Sure, tell me who I am, sir.” All right.
Victoria: Exactly. And then I did it, and I was like, “Oh, this is exactly right.” Like, this is the role that I had been organically doing for so long. It was like my brain finally felt validated, of like, “Oh, this is the way I've always seen it.” The chess pieces of this role. And then from there, I just kind of stuck with it. But it was just always like, “I want to do the art. I want to make art.”
And for me, I hated the fact that when you're a child, you're told to dream, and then at a certain age, you're told to get realistic. And that's how the arts is always approached, of like, “Children need arts. But then there's a point at which you grow up.” And I never wanted to lose that sense of whimsy and the inner child that still needed that art to survive, you know?
Hayley: Yeah, totally. Again, it kind of circles back to art being essential again.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. Vic, can you tell us about what you are working on creatively at the moment that's exciting you?
Victoria: Yeah! Oh man. Because I don't like free time, in addition to my full-time at RISE, I also produce work. And I also produce new musicals. I am part of a company called SOCIETY Theatre Collective. It's a very collaborative-based model in which we work together. It was built off the joint stock method. We have a lot of actors, we have writers. I'm the only producer. Our last production was in 2022. We are exploring entanglement theory, which is a very weird concept. I can't tell you what it means, but it's science.
Hayley: According to Caltech Science Exchange: “Like other aspects of quantum science, the phenomenon of entanglement reveals itself at very tiny subatomic scales. When two particles, such as a pair of photons or electrons, become entangled, they remain connected even when separated by vast distances.”
Amy: Yeah, it's one of those scientific concepts that feels like it's so human. Like, the way that our lives become entangled with each other. I think it's so theatrical and exciting.
Victoria: Yeah, so that's that's what we're working on. We had this hunch, and we have a lot of workshops where we all meet together. We write, and we have Mona Mansour and Emily Zemba, who are our core writers for the team, and then Scott Illingworth as our director. And we just finished a week-long workshop, and basically right now, they're like, “Hey Vic, can you produce this?” And I'm like, “Yeah, of course I'm going to be the producer of this.”
Just being in the room… It was set in an ordinary space of a gas station, and there's just shit happening. And you're like, “What is going on?” Like, I love being on the journey of “What am I watching?” Because I think the idea of entanglement theory is, like, it's going back to an earlier point of empathy. When you are empathetic, you kind of become entangled in someone's world because you want to be part of their world. You want to give them the advice or the care that they need to go through this, right? So this play is also exploring, like, what role do we play in each other's lives?
And I think that's a core element that we need to lean into, because to be witnessing art is to be invited in, and that's a big thing. An invitation is huge, and a lot of people don't have invitations in. So how can we lean more into that? So that got my juices flowing. I’m stressed out about the producing of it all. I'm like, “Wow, we have to raise a lot of money to do this.” And we have a large cast and a large team, but just being in that room, I was like, “Oh yeah, this does matter.” And then on top of that, I also am producing new musicals, which are searching for residencies. As we all know, money rules the world, so it's just… doing that.
Hayley: Until it doesn't, it will.
Amy: Yeah.
Victoria: Yup, exactly.
Hayley: Yeah. So Vic, you do so many different things. Like you said, free time is not something that's part of your world, really. So do you have a creative mission that ties all the different types of work that you do together?
Victoria: The reason why I do art is - again, it's because it's essential, right? But with my own lived experience, I had always felt on the outside. So something that I'm trying to actively work against is: How do we do better inclusion across the board? We have seen women taken out of the narrative, women not put in spaces, but then also women of color.
So my entire ethos, my mission, is to produce new works of artists of color, of artists of the global majority, including trans, queer artists. Those who have just been hidden in the margins. And I also think something that is hard for our industry is that if you don't have, like, three regional credits under your belt, you are not being considered. So how can I use my privilege as a producer to make sure that I'm helping new artists get into the room?
And then also it's, like, advocating for myself, of like, I've been working in this industry for a long time, and I still am having a hard time with people not remembering my name. My ethos is about producing work of the global majority, but also I really love work that explores magical surrealism that's grounded in reality. Because I think that is something that's really exciting. There is magic in the everyday, and I think we forget that. So I love exploring pieces with that kind of element.
Amy: I'm here for the magic. And finding the magic in the everyday is a really exciting, a really exciting journey for me right now in this particular moment.
Hayley: Joy is radical!
Amy: Joy is radical. It's true.
(Musical transition)
Amy: So I'd love to chat about womanhood and identity. So do you wanna tell us a little bit about how womanhood fits into your identity and other aspects of your identity and how all of that has impacted your theatrical work?
Victoria: My own lived experience has always felt like… I think a lot about it. My mom was always like, “You're a little too…” She's like, “You're too blunt.” I'd be like, “What do you mean?” And I would just be very - I've always been a very vocal person. And I noticed the ways in which my mom - this is not, like, blaming her in any way - but I saw the ways in which she had to protect me in a way that she wasn't protecting my brother, right? Of like, “You can't come off a certain way, because then you won't get opportunities.”
And all the women in my family - I come from a very strong line of women. But we also come from a line of, like, where the patriarchy was really strong, in which their voices were silenced. So I do think that my parents raised me to be this very strong and vocal woman. And then I was encountering so many experiences in which my identity was told that that is not okay, for you to take up that space.
And I have seen it in ways in which… I've had female mentors that have let me down - not on purpose, but because they also have to protect themselves. It's a constant navigation of values, but also, how do you move through the boys’ club of this industry that I think still is very strong? I'm a very charming person, and I know I have to use that to my advantage, because it's kind of like, you have to play a little dumb in order to get ahead. If I show people how smart I am at the get-go, I'm immediately a threat. So actually, how do I have to navigate that? And it's exhausting.
We all know about code switching, especially when you are a woman of color, like, how you have to play into that. But then also, there's the very practical of, like, if you are a woman, you're more susceptible to being hit on in a space in which you're just trying to be a leader. There will always be this natural disadvantage in the way that I present. And I even think about - like, some days I'll present - because I'm queer, I'll make sure that I'm presenting in a way that's not fitting the male gaze, but it's actually fitting the female gaze. And how does that make people interpret me in a different way when I walk into the room?
I think it's essential. I think, womanhood… I can't ever run away from it, so how can I embrace it? It's embracing my natural charms, which is so gross to say out loud. But it's also just knowing that I am going to have to play into other people's perceptions of me before I can always show up as myself. And that's a scary place to be, I think. But then also, how can I use that to my advantage? Oh, I'm so charming and cute. Give me what I want.
Hayley: I just want to highlight what you said, Vic, for a sec. It's like, the leaning into being underestimated, but then sometimes being underestimated then works against you. So it's just, like, there's so much to navigate.
Victoria: Exactly. And it's like, it's why women are so good at strategy. Like, there's a reason Athena is the goddess of war. Because strategy, women know strategy. And to be a woman in this industry is to constantly navigate that. It shouldn't be that way, but I've learned that there's always going to be those perceptions that lead before I can lead in the room.
Hayley: With all of that, Vic, if you could make a change to the industry - I know you're fighting for a lot of changes right now - but what is one change that you think could have a ripple effect and make a lot of change?
Victoria: The thing is, it's not just one change, because I think every change will have a trickle-down effect. And I think there's the Venn diagram of changes. We need more male allies to advocate for us. I've been very fortunate. Men have really shaped my career. I think in this industry, women are pitted against each other in a way that's really icky and gross. And sometimes with the scarcity mindset of it all - I talk about this at RISE all the time. The scarcity mindset is that, “If I have it, I have to hold on really tight, because I'm not sure I'll have it for that long.” That mentality drives so much in this industry.
I'm not, like, some amazing person, I so suffer from that as well. It's like when you get into a room, you're like, “Fuck, how did I get here?” And you worry that, like, your time is limited. Right? I think about it when I see someone else who is another producer doing really well, I’m like, “God. Well, they're doing this. How could I ever compete?” Like, I'm not there yet. But then I have to remind myself that my journey is my own journey. Divine timing is right.
With that, I think we need more male allies to kind of advocate. We need men to speak up about when they see things that are icky, to call it out in the room. We need more resource sharing in this industry. That is something I'm also trying to work with with RISE, of like - that is again, fighting against a scarcity mindset of like, “Hey, this marketing tactic worked really well for us.”
Right now, we're seeing turnover for shows at an exponential rate. It's really, really sad to see. So much of that work has been in development for years. So imagine you finally get your run, and it's so short-lived. It's devastating, and I think we are missing the grace period of - like, the grace that we give ourselves, but the grace we give one another.
I also think that, like, ultimately, we need to have a large conversation that overall, the system isn't working. How are we shifting it? I think there are people who will still profit from this system who are unwilling to talk about that, because if it were to change, they might not be as successful. But a large majority of the pie is struggling, and again, it comes back to the empathy, the lack of empathy right now.
Hayley: Well, and the rugged individualism, right?
Victoria: Right, yeah!
Hayley: That sort of idea of, “Well, I’m just going to bootstrap my way.” Like, it ties back to this idea of the American dream and where we are in our society. And what you were saying before, of like, “If somebody else wins, I lose.”
Victoria: Exactly.
Hayley: And realistically, that isn’t true, and that’s what the people benefiting from the system want us to think, because it will keep us siloed and it will keep us down and it will keep us from succeeding. But what we know is that a rising tide will lift all boats.
Amy: Yes.
Hayley: And we have to actually, like, continue to live that and act on that idea.
Amy: I just wanted to highlight what you said about giving ourselves grace and giving each other grace, which also connects back to the idea of empathy. It feels like there's not a lot of space for difference or uniqueness or originality or imperfection, and that is a big piece of the problem that we need to be talking about as a community and as an industry.
Victoria: I also think that has been bred from the wellness culture hell that we’ve experienced, of like, “You need to be your authentic self on social media. You need…” And it’s like, how many of us are tired of seeing someone be like, “Oh my god, I've been drinking lemon water, and my life is so much better.” Like, no one wants that right now. Like, can we be actual authentic…
Hayley: Take your lemon water out of here! We don't want it!
Victoria: Please! I love that we had this big move towards authenticity and, like, being our best selves, on Instagram and social media. We need that push. But then, capitalism ruined everything, because then it just became a ploy.
Hayley: Yeah, because now authenticity is for sale, right?
Victoria: Exactly.
Amy: Yeah, and now it’s this consumerist thing, yeah.
Victoria: Yeah. But ultimately, I do think there needs to be a shift in - and I will say this, I should really trademark it at this point - but I think there needs to be a new version of culture of care. We need to create a culture of care that is non-existent right now. How are we taking care of each other in this time? That's the only way we're going to survive.
I think about what I did with the RISE Summit of - like, that day was something that I was dreaming about. What does it look like to have a collective day for us? And then in the moment, it was exactly what I had hoped it would be. It was like, oh, this actually is really powerful, to actually say there's a space for all of us to meet and talk. Because when you actually put the resources into taking care of your community, everyone does well. Like, it's just a basic thing, but I think right now, we're lacking that, and I'm trying to find ways in which our industry can be better integrators of culture of care, and how…
That starts with everything. It starts with accessibility at the front door. It involves accessibility in the budget when we're building things. It involves having folks who don't look like one another at the same table so that we can talk to each other about what we might be missing. Because we all have our own lived experience that's going to influence the way we work and lead. But if we're not having multiple voices at the table, we are going to have some huge oversights that are going to affect those who are most vulnerable.
Hayley: Absolutely. And I just want to applaud you for the work that you're doing with RISE and at the Summit. Because even just in our personal sphere and in our organization, we've been able to do so much better at meeting our community needs just from getting to meet other folks and hearing what is needed and getting in a room together. So much of what we do with this project, also, is about getting people in a room together and figuring it out. And, you know, showing up and being a real community.
I think that when you're talking about the culture of care and you're talking about “How are we showing up for one another?” That's what I keep thinking about is, like, how do we get the entire theatre industry in a room together? Like, across experience levels, different roles, all of these things. If we're in proximity and we can see, then there's more that we can do.
Victoria: Yes.
Amy: Yeah, and I want you to know, Vic, the RISE Inaugural Summit was an incredible day. We had an amazing time there, and we met such interesting people, and we heard such interesting conversations, and we had such interesting conversations. And also, that work is continuing. Like, we are, behind the scenes, continuing to chat with the organizations that we met there and meet new people and form new collaborations and partnerships, and ideas are growing, and it's all so exciting. And that's because of the work that you and the rest of the RISE team put into that. So good on you.
Hayley: Yeah.
Victoria: Thank you. That means a lot. That's it! Like, it's just… Once you meet someone, it's opening doors to what we do. Art is a collaboration. Even a one-woman show still has a whole team of staff helping that one-woman show happen, right? We forget that this is the most collaborative art form that does exist. So why are we shying away from that in every other facet of the industry?
(Musical transition)
Hayley: We talked already, Vic, we mentioned your lack of free time. I'm going to underline it again. So how do you think about balancing your creative work with the rest of your life?
Victoria: Boundaries is, like, one of the hottest words I know in my vocabulary.
Hayley: Boundaries are sexy, listeners.
Victoria: Boundaries are so sexy! Like, Valentine’s Day - call me up, boundaries! For me, I have been very vocal about my needs. I don't answer emails before 10 or after 6 - like, that is just a boundary. My workday is Monday through Friday, 10 to 6. I'm not trying to ignore you, but like, my weekends are the time that I have for myself, and even then, I don't even have my weekend fully free, right? So, really setting clear boundaries of work has been one way in which I take care of myself.
I also do this thing where I only set some days of the week for outings, like, for shows. I usually do Wednesday through Friday, because I'm like, Monday and Tuesday, I at least can be home making a meal for myself. And like, I think we forget that just having opportunity to cook for yourself is self-care. And this is a thing I coined: “I love my future self.” Like, past Vic loves herself so much. So, like, I know - I do this thing where I'll always just have a snack for myself. Like, I'll have a vision on Monday and be like, “This Friday, I know I'm going to want a chocolate cupcake.” And then I'll, like, prep it. And then on Friday, I'm like, “Past Vic, she loves herself so much.” So I'm really good at, like, setting myself up for success of like, little treats throughout the week.
Hayley: Building treats for yourself, that’s so brilliant! I’m gonna steal that.
Amy: That's amazing. I love it.
Victoria: So it's just that. So that's how I do it. It's really radical self-care in a way that doesn't always take a lot out of me. And then I've had an injury, I fractured my ribs, so that's been terrible, but…
Amy: Boo!
Hayley: I’m sorry.
Victoria: I used to go to the gym every morning. Yeah, it’s a bummer. But I used to go to the gym every morning. And for me, that was at least one designated form of self-care each day, which is also kind of a meditation in itself. So I’m waiting to go back to that as well.
Hayley: Yeah, yeah, I get that.
Amy: That's beautiful.
Hayley: I love what you said, too, about the boundaries around when you go to shows. Or like, what your outing nights are, like, when you're gonna go out and when you're gonna stay home. ‘Cause I love people, and I love doing things, and I sometimes end up overpacking my schedule with things and people that are all wonderful, but then I'm like, “Why am I so burnt out or so tired?” And it's like, I actually need a few nights a week to stare at the wall and eat a meal at home.
Amy: So Vic, you are doing such amazing work in so many areas. I would love to hear you talk a bit about what does success look like for you personally, and then what does success look like for you in the broader theatre industry? What's the beautiful vision that you're working toward?
Victoria: I think - it's very funny that you ask that, because I think I'm in a place where that is shifting. This industry kind of feels like - I think, frustrating, in that sometimes it feels like if you don't have a Tony, especially if you're a producer, you are not going to be taken seriously. Like, you need a certain amount of accolades in order to be seen as successful. But for me, I have been really trying to, like, level-set for myself. Again, producing is a role of advocacy. So, for me, if my artists’ dreams are coming to fruition, then I am successful. Because that is all I'm doing. So, for me, success looks like: Did I hit the goals of this artistic project? That is successful to me.
I think a lot about with RISE - it's what I did with the RISE Summit. That was a huge success. But for me, success in the advocacy lane looks like: How can I use my own privilege to make sure that I'm being the conduit of connection and actually living true to the values and the mission set with RISE? And I like to think that's what success looks like, but for me.
In this industry as a larger whole, I am thinking a lot about sustainability. If we can reach a place in which the work that I'm doing is allowing all of us to be more sustainable in our systems, then that will be the ultimate indicator of my success. I did that. For me, I'm really interested and want to continue exploring creative placemaking in the industry. Like, I don't think we can rely on the government right now. So how can we rely on the city that we live in to take care of one another? So, actually creating more programming that is the fusion of city planning and arts planning. And I think those need to speak to each other a lot more, and that is the goal and the work that I hope I can continue doing.
And the thing is, I don't know what that looks like. I'm kind of building the ship as I'm steering it. But for me, success looks like listening to the needs of the folks that I say that I'm helping. And actually making sure that I - even if it's, like, a larger goal, what are the small steps I'm doing to get us there? And ultimately, if my community is actually feeling like the needs are being met, then that is successful to me.
Hayley: Wow, I said it early, that you were going to be a beacon of light today, and that was like - I feel like I just basked in your sunshine. That was beautiful, I love it.
Victoria: That's so funny, I have my little sunflower pen over here too.
Hayley: Oh my gosh, there you go!
Amy: That's so perfect!
Hayley: I love it, that's perfect. When you're talking about this sustainable future, it's like, this is it. You're steering the boat as you build it, but you are building it, and it's happening, even if you don't see all of the ways that that has been playing out. It does. Even when you're not physically in the space, the work that you're doing spiritually is continuing outward, so. ..
Amy: Absolutely! And what you were saying earlier about the importance of investing in yourself and believing in yourself and taking those big risks. Like, yes! Build the ship while you're sailing it, it's gotta be built. Yeah. I love the vision of a sustainable world, especially because if we can make that a reality, that can take us through governments that are friendly to the arts. It can take us through governments that are not friendly to the arts. It can allow for more stability within a very unstable industry.
Victoria: Yeah.
Hayley: Well, and the art that we're making that is meant to speak to people that have not been prioritized, let's say, in our society will hopefully have a better chance of reaching them. That’s the other thing.
Amy: Absolutely.
Victoria: Exactly.
Amy: Cool!
Hayley: Wow. Big stuff.
Amy: Lots to think about.
Hayley: Vic, we could talk to you all day.
Amy: All day.
Hayley: But I'm gonna give you our last question here. So what are you the most proud of in your life and in your work so far?
Victoria: What am I most proud of? I would say RISE is one of my biggest achievements. It means so much to me. And I think… I'm going to share the story of, like, how it came to be, because I think that actually speaks to everything.
I always said that, like, I was doing this work organically. I was in producing offices in which I was creating a list of ten designers of color that they should know about and pitching them and not being heard and, like, always being that voice of, “Hey, let's consider who's not being in the room,” right? And I've had the privilege of being one of the only in the room. But this job… I butchered this interview so bad, like, it was one of the worst interview experiences of my life, and I never heard back, and I was like, “Cool.”
Hayley: Wait, for RISE, you mean?
Victoria: Yeah. So I didn't hear back and I was like, “Cool, cool.” And that was like, in September, didn’t hear anything, I was like, “Cool, cool.” And then three months later, I get a call or an email of like, “Hey, we haven't been able to find anyone and your name came up. Would you be interested in grabbing a coffee?” And apparently, the folks hiring went to people they trusted in their community and said, “Who do you think is the person for this role?” And my name came up. And for me, I fully believe that what's meant for you will never pass you by. And this work, it meant so much to me.
The thing is, we had this idea, we're like, “We're launching this directory and then figure it out.” And then they're like, “Oh, and there's partners. Figure that out.” So, so much of this has just been, like, trial and error, and trial by fire, really. Everything that I'm planning is just by listening and trying to figure out, like, what resources do I have within this whole stifling, siloed nonprofit that doesn't have many resources, but what resources can I give?
And I think relationships is one of my strengths, right? Like, building relationships is what matters to me. And through that work - that is a great success of my life, making sure that the relationships I maintain… If you are in my life, there's a reason you're in my life, and I want you to know that, because life is so short. I want everyone to know that I love them and I care for them. And I say “I love you” a lot. And I know that's alarming to people, but I want you to know that I love you. Even if you're like, “Okay, that's a lot. That's a big word.” I love the work that I do. I love the people that I work with, because I only do it for you all. And that's - and I'm not even trying to sound, like, so obnoxious, like white savior bullshit. But like, I love seeing the work, and I care about people so deeply that for me, this is a great success of my life, to be able to say, “I can take care of the people that I say I'm going to by showing up for them.”
Amy: That's so beautiful.
Hayley: What a way to end the interview. That's beautiful. Thank you so much, Vic.
Victoria: Thank you!
Hayley: Thank you, thank you, thank you for being here.
Amy: Thank you.
Hayley: For sharing your wisdom. And yeah, just all of the incredible work you're doing. We're so grateful that you're in this space. And I personally feel inspired to be living in the same moment as you and in the same broader community, so thank you.
Amy: Yeah!
Victoria: The feeling is so mutual. Are you kidding? You guys are amazing. Thank you for having me.
Amy: Oh my gosh. We're so excited about all the things you're doing, all the things you're gonna do. We're following along. We're big fans.
Hayley: So before we actually run, Vic, can you tell our listeners where they can find you and find more information about RISE on the internet and beyond?
Victoria: You can check my RISE profile at work.risetheatre.org. You can find me on LinkedIn. And I also have a website, if you're like, “What does she actually do?” Go check it out. It's victoriadetres.com. And stay connected. Follow us on social media, learn about the amazing work that our partners do, including Women & Theatre. Obviously you do if you're listening to this. But yeah, that's it.
Amy: Fabulous! Thank you so much, Vic.
Hayley: Fabulous.
Vic: Oh my god, thank you. This was so lovely.
Hayley: Thank you so much, Vic!
Vic: Thank you! All right, bye!
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Oh my god, I love Vic, that was so great.
Amy: What a great interview, yeah. I love that Vic - she can just like, speak to the heart of the truth about something. She's such a wise person, and I love how community-focused she is, both in terms of using the resources within the community and also, like, what can we do to to listen to the community needs and to meet them to serve the community? Which is very aligned with what we do at Women & Theatre. Such a good interview.
Hayley: Yeah. I want to underline “culture of care,” because that was a big takeaway for me in this interview. And I also want to underline, because I feel like we didn't take enough time to highlight this in the moment, but “producing is advocacy.” Whoa.
Amy: Yes, that was a big one, yeah. I love that.
Hayley: I just want to say “Whoa.” Because at our community event the other week… In the way that we talk about problems in the industry, people often focus on producing, and what producers can do, and, you know, that producers need to do X. Producers need to allow for more diversity in the space, like, whatever the thing is. And I think the idea of producing as advocacy is sort of just a radical mind shift, that if producers were thinking of their work as advocacy work, how much that could shift the industry. It’s incredible.
Amy: Yeah! I mean, I think about producing the same way, and you're right. These conversations keep coming up about the people in positions of power, which is producers. They're the ones with the money and the resources and who make things happen. And…
Hayley: But it's also theatre owners, and I feel like there’s not enough focus on that too.
Amy: Yeah, it’s also theatre owners too. Right, and the idea that if you are a person who holds power in this industry, you are always advocating for something, whether it is conscious or unconscious. And for some people, what you are advocating for - whether you know it or not - is a continuation of the status quo and a continuation of the patriarchy being in power…
Hayley: …and white supremacy being in power.
Amy: Yeah, and people in marginalized communities not having a voice and not seeing themselves represented or having the opportunity to be in spaces.
So, yeah, it's certainly something that I think a lot about as a producer, and I love that Vic brought that up and just, like, threw that gem into the conversation so…
Hayley: So casually.
Amy: So casually!
Hayley: Producing as advocacy. Yeah, I love it. Well, and I think about my favorite producers that I've worked with so far - who, you know, granted are a lot of up-and-comers, but some who are more established, also - and they approach it this way, you know? I'm an advocate for the issues that I care about. I'm an advocate for the people and the artists that I'm working with. Like, that mindset, and people first, is sort of lacking in the industry, and I think it could change a lot if we had…
Amy: But it's also happening.
Hayley: Well, it is happening. Yes.
Amy: Like, it's lacking and it's happening.
Hayley: Both things are true.
Amy: There’s a sea change happening, which is exciting.
Hayley: So how can we continue to, like, bring that to the forefront, and just, like… Yeah, sit with that, listeners. Producing is advocacy.
Amy: Very exciting, yeah!
Hayley: Okay, well, this is… I feel really inspired. So why don't we take a moment to uplift more people who inspire us, Amy?
Amy: Let's do it!
Hayley: Who's your Trailblazer of the Week?
Amy: Oh my gosh. I have four Trailblazers of the Week.
Hayley: Four!
Amy: I think I do. But it’s for a good reason!
Hayley: That's a lot of trailblazers!
Amy: It is a lot of trailblazers, and it's because they’re our fabulous new Women & Theatre expanded team.
Hayley: Oh! Yes!
Amy: And I’m so excited about all of them, and I just have to shout them all out.
Hayley: Okay, that’s good. That’s a good one.
Amy: Yes, because they are literally helping us blaze our trails while they are also blazing their own trails as artists and creatives.
Hayley: Okay, that was a hot way to say that. That was, that was hot, Amy.
Amy: Thank you.
Hayley: Good job.
Amy: Yeah, so I want to shout out to Beth Rosebrook, our fabulous social media assistant; Sylvia Blair, our fabulous events coordinator…
Hayley: …who crushed it at the event the other week.
Amy: Crushed it. Just crushed it.
Hayley: So good.
Amy: And Courtney Seyl and Ally Varitek, who are our amazing grants assistants. And we are at the very beginning of this journey of expanding our Women & Theatre team and bringing more people onto this project. And the people that have chosen to come on this journey with us are just - oh, they're such good people. And I'm so excited about the work we are doing with them, the work we will do with them. I'm just like, oh! I'm overjoyed. It lights me up in ways that I can't even say. So, yay! Shout out to our Team Women & Theatre Trailblazers of the Week. Hayley, who's your Trailblazer of the Week this week?
Hayley: My Trailblazer of the Week is someone who I got the pleasure of meeting through our community event, and that is Kate Willard.
Amy: Yes, Kate!
Hayley: None of us knew Kate before. I think she said she heard about us through the RISE newsletter or Broadway Briefing or something. And she showed up not knowing anyone, and boy, did she make a splash in the community discussion. She had so many good ideas. Great questions.
One of the things we talked about at the event was pay transparency, and one of the things that Kate suggested, which is such a simple thing, was putting together a community Google sheet where people can say, “This is the theatre I worked at. This is the job that I did at that theatre, and this is how much I was paid for that job.” And that kind of blew my mind, because there are so many simple things that we can do to make the space more transparent and more equitable. We just forget about our power, and that's such a beautiful example. And Kate had so many good ideas.
And she also talked about, like, universal basic income for artists in France as a model for [how] art being prioritized in society, like we've been talking about, can look. And that was so mind blowing. So…
Amy: That was really interesting. Yeah, she was talking about the Intermittence system in France, which is like unemployment but for artists, and it's like, actually living pay, like, livable pay, unlike unemployment in the US.
Hayley: Yeah, it functions more like UBI [universal basic income] than unemployment.
Amy: Yeah, exactly.
Hayley: Yeah, yeah. Where you can, if you log a certain number of hours as an artist, you can qualify for like, $1200 a month or something? It was a pretty high number.
Amy: Yeah, I think that was what Kate said. Yeah.
Hayley: Yeah, so shout out to Kate and thanks for coming to our event! And we're always looking to expand our community, so we'll keep you posted, folks, on where you can show up to the next one
Amy: Yeah, and if you are inspired by any of these topics that we're chatting about on the podcast and you want to be a part of these conversations, please reach out, like, over email, over social media. We are happy to have these conversations with you. We will introduce you to people who are having these conversations. We want these conversations to happen, and we want to be a part of it, so join us.
Hayley: Yes, fabulous! I want to hype you up, Amy, for something that I brought up earlier on this podcast when I brought up my Rose, which is that I'm really grateful to my people for supporting me. You've done such a great job of showing up for me, both in this project and as my friend, in the last few weeks, ‘cause I've just been (sings) struggling. That's like the #struggling sound.
Amy: #Struggling!
Hayley: (sings) Struggling.
And it's really helpful to know that you're thinking about me and that you are a person who I can lean on and that I can rely on, like I said, in this project and in life. So thank you for that. I love you and I appreciate you.
Amy: I love you too!
Hayley: And I want to hype you up for being a good friend. So there you go.
Amy: Thank you. Aw, thanks. Right back atcha. Yay. Amazing. Yeah, I want to hype you up today cause you came in in a really (sings) #struggling place. (laughter) It’s like a little theme song!
Hayley: I did. She's not shading me, listeners. I just came on, and she was like, “How are you?” And I was like, “I'm not good.”
Amy: Yeah, but I love how open you were during this interview and how you let it in. You let the light shine in and inspire you. And I mean, Vic is such an amazing person to be inspired by. But I really - it was so joyful to me to see you experiencing the joy and inspiration going through this interview. You could easily have sat there and been like, “Oof, I'm having a bad moment in my life and I'm not going to move from that.” But you were open and vulnerable and, like, allowed that that moment of joy to come in, and I really think that's wonderful. So hyping you up, rock star!
Hayley: Thank you. Joy is radical, listeners.
Amy: It’s radical!
Hayley: That's the thing. I believe it, but sometimes it's hard to let it in when things are scary out there, you know?
Amy: Yeah. So listeners, embrace that radical joy. Find your joy today.
Hayley: Find your joy today, this week, and go shine your light on everybody who is willing to take it in.
Amy: Go shine your light.
Hayley: Yeah. Love you so much! We actually have a programming update for you.
amy: Yes. Hayley, my fabulous co-host, is going to be away for the next couple of months, because she's working on a super exciting out-of-town production of a fabulous show. I'm so excited for her, and I know we all are. But because of that, listeners, we are going to be doing a little programming break. So, thank you for listening to the first half of Women & Theatre Podcast Season 5!
Hayley: It’s Season 5, Part 1, babes!
Amy: Season 5, Part 1! And guess what? You have a little time to listen back and enjoy these episodes and drink in all the wisdom…
Hayley: If you've missed any, catch up. It's time.
Amy: Yeah. And we will be back in a couple months’ time with Part 2 of Season 5. And meanwhile, keep chatting with us on social media, feel free to reach out if there's any conversations you want to have, come to our virtual co-working events, and we will see you right back here on our video podcast for the second half of Season 5! Thank you so much for being here with us.
Hayley: So yeah, we love you. Like we said, go shine your light.
Amy: Go shine your light!
Hayley: And we'll see you in a couple months. Bye everybody!
Amy: Bye!
(Musical transition)
Amy: Looking for community and accountability? Drop in and join us for our next virtual co-working session on Tuesday, April 8th at 11am Eastern Time. Bring yourself, your creative projects and ideas, and a cozy beverage, and let's get stuff done! To get the Zoom link, visit the Community Events page on our website or check out the link in the show notes.
Hayley: Programming update: Stay tuned for Part 2 of Season 5 of the Women & Theatre Podcast, coming to you June 3rd.
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews! If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show was written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
