S4E9: Danielle DeMatteo
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk with SheNYC Arts artistic director Danielle DeMatteo about building new approaches to break down barriers and increase gender equity in theatrical spaces, the arts industry’s power as a voting bloc, feminist rage that leads to needed change, and more. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Guest: Danielle DeMatteo
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Guest Bio:
Danielle DeMatteo (she/her) is a writer/composer, photographer, and Artistic Director of SheNYC Arts. After working in the creative department at Jujamcyn Theaters (working on such shows as Kinky Boots, Jersey Boys, The Book of Mormon, A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder, Something Rotten!, two seasons of Encores! at New York City Center, and more), she focused her work on fixing the gender gap in the Broadway industry. She founded SheNYC Arts in 2015 and is eternally grateful to all of the other talented arts workers who have helped it grow and develop since then into a nationwide nonprofit organization that operates in New York, Los Angeles, Atlanta, and Dallas-Fort Worth. Outside of SheNYC, most recently she was on the worldwide Production team at Disney Theatrical Group, working on Frozen, The Lion King, and Aladdin around the globe. As a writer, her musicals have run off-Broadway, in Boston, and Chicago; her most recent piece, QUEEN ANNE, was the 2021 recipient of the Brooklyn Arts Council grant for musical theatre. In addition to her work in theater, she was one of the original organizers of the Women's March on Washington and has worked on a number of New York political campaigns, including as the Campaign Manager for Art Chang's 2021 Mayoral run. She was recently featured in Forbes Magazine, was named one of Five Women to Watch as Broadway Returns by Shonda Rhimes' publication, Shondaland, and is on the 2024 Broadway Women's Fund's Women to Watch list.
Find Danielle Online:
SheNYC Arts - follow on Instagram!
SheLA Arts - follow on Instagram!
SheATL Arts - follow on Instagram!
SheDFW Arts - follow on Instagram!
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello beautiful people, and welcome back to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cozy beverage and join us as we talk to women and gender-expansive folks about their experiences at the intersection of womanhood and theatre.
Hayley: On the pod, we cultivate open conversations across identities and professional roles…
Amy: We look for opportunities to support one another in growing our careers…
Hayley: And we pool our collective wisdom to build the equitable theatrical spaces of the future.
(Music)
Amy: Hi Hayley, how are you?
Hayley: I'm doing okay. I just got back from a whirlwind week at Manhattanville University,
Amy: Tell the listeners what you were doing!
Hayley: Yes, I got back from a whirlwind week at Manhattanville University workshopping my musical Plane Girl with their wonderful BFA Musical Theatre students. And honestly, it was a dream. These students are so special and they put so much hard work and energy and love into what we did there together.
So it was a really, really special week. I'm very tired. We made lots of changes, and I was also directing the show, so my head is spinning a little bit as I kind of try to come back into work and everyday life. And I'm also going to visit my spouse in Toronto at the end of this week. So things are kind of wild, but I'm here. I'm happy to be here. I'm excited to talk to you and to our guest today, but Amy, how are you doing?
Amy: Yeah, I am also doing okay. It has been a tired week. This seasons changing thing, it's no joke. I also feel like there's a lot going on in my life. There aren't specific, very exciting things that I can point to the way you can point to yours. But yeah, it does, it feels like life is just “life-ing” a bit hard right now. So I hear you, and we're here together. And I'm so excited to talk with you and with Danielle today.
So tell me your Rose and your Thorn for this week, Hayley. You might have already told me your rose.
Hayley: I think so. I mean, let's get more specific though. My rose is that, on the opening night of our workshop presentations of Plane Girl at Manhattanville, the students made Julia and Canaan and I all cards, and they shared with us what a meaningful experience it was for them and told us that they had experienced theatre environments and spaces that were not the most welcoming and not the most safe to make really brave choices. And just that the experience of doing this show with us in such a short time really empowered them to be their full selves and take up all the space in the room and forgive themselves instantly for the mistakes that they made, because mistakes are just a fact of the process.
And for me as a theatre person and an educator, that's the most important thing in the world to me. And anyone who knows me knows how important safe spaces are, so to hear that that was their experience, it just means the world to me. They put on a great show, and that's special, and we learned a lot about the show, and that's special too. But most special to me is that they had a great experience and feel bold and feel confident and feel empowered, and that's really, really special, so that's my rose.
Amy: Yay, I love all of that. Yeah, I just want to name that you are very clear that that is your goal as a theatre professional, is to make people feel safe and seen and welcomed and celebrated in rooms. And like, you did that. You did the thing, and you heard from the people that they felt that way. So I am just, ah! I'm over the moon for you.
Hayley: It honestly makes me emotional, yeah.
Amy: Yeah. What's your thorn for the week?
Hayley: Yeah, my thorn is just that I'm still figuring out how to take care of myself and also, like, work at a level of excellence that I wanna work at.
Amy: Oof, lifelong journey.
Hayley: It's a big one, you know? Yeah, and I think it… Yes, it's a lifelong journey, and I think just trying to figure out how to take care of everybody else around me and also take care of myself. And I know that they go hand in hand, but also sometimes, I'm in the habit of thinking that I have to sacrifice my own well-being in order to take care of the people around me and take care of the work things that I'm doing. And I think that it's just, it's been hitting me hard this week. So that's my thorn for this week, but I'd love to hear about yours.
Amy: Yeah, that's a hard one. I'm a firm believer in, you put on your own oxygen mask first.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: And also, that's a lot easier said than done when we're people in the world who are literally socialized to help other people before ourselves. So, yeah. Heard. And legitimized.
Yeah. What are my rose and thorn for this week? I think they're connected. These last few weeks have been really rough for me. Like, I've just been going through a rough patch for a lot of reasons. There's been a lot of stuff going on that's been low-key ticking me off. But then, like, when there are a lot of those things, it all accumulates.
So that's the thorn, but I feel like I'm starting to come out of it. I guess - for me to get more specific, my rose for the week is that with everything going on, I have been letting my morning routine slide. I have been trying to be super protective of this mini tiny morning routine that I've put together, where I get up and I meditate and I do some journaling. And I do some yoga if I still have time before my child wakes up, and it's really important for my well-being. And I have been letting it slide, and this week I have been very strict with myself about, like, I'm doing this. I don't feel like getting up because it's fall and it's cold, but I'm doing it. And that's my rose.
And my thorn, to make a specific thorn, is bad communication. Like, ugh. Just in a lot of areas of my life, there's been a lot of like, people not giving other people the information that they need to do the things that they need to do well. And it, ugh! It just makes me so upset. It really frustrates me. I feel like this is a very on-brand thorn for me today. But that's it. That's what's bothering me.
Hayley: Well, we're about to have some good communication here.
Amy: We are! I'm so excited to talk with Danielle today. So Danielle is the Artistic Director of SheNYC Arts, which is an organization that - I love the work they're doing, I've been a little involved with them over the last couple of years. I've gone to some of their events, and I've done some script reading for them. And I really love the work that they're doing on gender equity in the theatre space. It feels very aligned with what we're doing at Women & Theatre. And I'm so excited to get to know Danielle better and hear more about how she built the organization and what her vision for it is.
Hayley: Me too!
Amy: Let's do it!
(Musical transition)
Amy: Danielle DeMatteo is a writer and composer, photographer, and Artistic Director of SheNYC Arts. After working in the creative department at Jujamcyn Theaters (working on such shows as Kinky Boots, Jersey Boys, The Book of Mormon, A Gentleman's Guide to Love and Murder, Something Rotten!, two seasons of Encores! at New York City Center, and more), she focused her work on fixing the gender gap in the Broadway industry. Danielle founded SheNYC Arts in 2015 and is eternally grateful to all of the other talented arts workers who have helped it grow and develop since then into a nationwide nonprofit organization that operates in New York, Los Angeles, Atlanta, and Dallas-Fort Worth.
Outside of SheNYC, Danielle was most recently on the worldwide Production team at Disney Theatrical Group, working on Frozen, The Lion King, and Aladdin around the globe. As a writer, her musicals have run off-Broadway, in Boston, and Chicago; her most recent piece, QUEEN ANNE, was the 2021 recipient of the Brooklyn Arts Council grant for musical theatre.
In addition to her work in theatre, Danielle was one of the original organizers of the Women's March on Washington and has worked on a number of New York political campaigns, including as the Campaign Manager for Art Chang's 2021 Mayoral run. She was recently featured in Forbes Magazine, was named one of Five Women to Watch as Broadway Returns by Shonda Rhimes' publication, Shondaland, and is on the 2024 Broadway Women's Fund's Women to Watch list.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Hello, beautiful people! We are here with Danielle DeMatteo of SheNYC Arts. Danielle, thank you so much for being with us today.
Danielle: Thank you so much for having me!
Amy: Danielle, could you please share your pronouns and tell us a little bit about what you do in theatrical spaces?
Danielle: Yeah, so my pronouns are she/her. Originally in theatrical spaces, I was a pianist. I moved into orchestration and composing. From there, ended up landing in a job in a Broadway producing company. And all along the way, had many experiences as a woman in theatre, and because of all that, I decided to found a gender equity organization for the arts. So that's SheNYCArts. My title there is the Artistic Director, and I founded that company in 2015. So we are about to go into our 10th anniversary season.
Hayley: Wow, congratulations!
Amy: Wow, congratulations, that’s huge!
Danielle: Yeah, it's crazy. I can't believe it. I really, yeah, nope. I didn't even think the world would exist 10 years from 2015, but here we are.
Hayley: Heard, honestly. Well, cool. Danielle, before we dive into the interview proper, I'd love to ask you, what's inspiring you right now?
Danielle: We just opened script submissions for SheNYC at the time of recording this. By the time it's released, it'll probably be over. But seeing all of the script submissions coming in, especially so early - you know, we get most of them usually like, 12 hours before the deadline, but so early on…
Hayley: Yeah, writers out there, we see you. That's probably me too, honestly.
Amy: Yeah, writers out there, we are you.
Danielle: It's… No shade about that whatsoever, I would do the exact same thing. But I'm really inspired by seeing how many scripts are getting submitted this early on in the process. Getting to see new ones come in every day. I really love this time of year where I get to just read people's work. So, yeah.
Hayley: Awesome. Cool.
Amy: That’s wonderful, I love it.
Hayley: Well, we're doing a new segment this season where we're doing a flash round of questions. This is like - don't think, just speak quickly. It'll be a fun time.
Amy: It’s gonna be great, we’re gonna have fun.
Hayley: So Danielle, if you were an animal, what would you be?
Danielle: Turtle.
Hayley: Fab.
Amy: Awesome. What's your weirdest hobby?
Danielle: I like to cross stitch, but that's not very weird, I guess. Is that weird?
Amy: Oh, I love cross stitch, I used to do that in high school. I think it counts. Weird, cool…
Hayley: I don't think it's weird, but I think it counts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We say weird in a good way, you know, like we're embracing weird.
Danielle: One time I cross stitched the entire time on like a four-hour flight, so I think that was pretty weird for the person sitting next to me.
Hayley: Heard, heard, yeah. Danielle, what quote or mantra or something like that is speaking to you right now?
Danielle: Ooh, my go-to is just always the Ruth Bader Ginsburg quote, when she is asked how many women on the Supreme Court will be enough, and she says “When there are nine,” because there have been nine men and nobody ever raised an eyebrow about that.
Hayley: If I could snap into the mic, I would. (laughter)
Danielle: That's kind of my guiding light at all times.
Hayley/Amy: Love it.
Amy: That's great. Danielle, what's your favorite musical?
Danielle: Oh no! Oh, I might get in trouble for this one. I would say actually it's hard to pick just one, but I think probably the number one is A Little Night Music.
Amy: Oh, great choice, that’s a great score.
Hayley: Yeah, very, very good. What's your song of the moment?
Danielle: Ooh, ooh, I'm just really obsessed with the Cowboy Carter album.
Hayley: Oh, love, yes.
Amy: Yes!
Danielle: Still.
Hayley: You can't go wrong with that answer. It's a good one.
Danielle: Yeah, right?
Hayley: Yeah, yeah. Cool.
Amy: Thanks for playing along with our flash round!
Danielle: Okay, that wasn't too bad.
Amy: You nailed it. It was great.
(Musical transition)
Amy: So, I would love to hear from you: How did you come to theatre and your creative work? Take us on a journey.
Danielle: Oh, wow. So I was a little kid, and I was very shy. But I had all of my friends who did, like, theatre things. We didn't have any arts program at my public school, so we didn't have like, drama club or anything like that. But I had a bunch of friends who started doing acting stuff at a local regional theatre where I grew up outside of Boston. I absolutely hated the idea of that because I was so shy, but I wanted to hang out with my friends. So I played piano, and I figured out that I could still be involved in theatre without having to talk to people that much.
(laughter)
So yeah, I started playing piano at this local theatre and getting involved kind of behind the scenes, doing things that way. I did end up performing begrudgingly a little bit. I quickly realized that is not something I wanted to do. So yeah, playing piano was sort of my inlet into the theatre world.
Hayley: Cool. Danielle, you spoke a little bit about the script submissions, but could you tell us a little bit about what you're working on creatively at the moment?
Danielle: Yeah, so, with SheNYC, the big project of the moment, aside from script submissions, is that we're making our first feature film.
Hayley: So cool! I had no idea. Wow.
Danielle: Yeah, I'm so excited! We're gonna shoot it in March in Alabama. Never been to Alabama before, so we'll see how that is, And we are working on adapting the script from one of the plays that we've worked on in the past. It's a play called Sheepwell, if anybody out there saw Sheepwell at the SheNYC Festival in 2023…
Hayley: …We’re speaking to you.
Amy: I love it.
Danielle: We're adapting that into a feature film. We're doing a lot of changes to the script, so it's been a really fun creative project and also really fun to like, study movies that kind of relate to the subject matter to see how they piece the story together for the screen.
And I've never worked in the film world. We have other people on the team who are much more experienced film veterans than me. But it's been so cool to learn from them and to see how, like, a lot of the rules that you learn about theatre and about playwriting are completely the opposite in film. And I'm just like, oh! Oh, okay, so you're not supposed to do that here. Alright, got it! So yeah, that's my fun creative project of the moment.
Hayley: Love it.
Amy: That is fun. And SheNYC, I believe, recently got into the licensing business too, yeah? Do you want to tell us a bit about that?
Danielle: Yeah, so we're now licensing the shows from our past summer theatre festivals for productions around the country. We've licensed out four shows so far, and I'm so excited to get to number five. So if anybody out there wants to be number five, you know where to reach us. So we are hoping to get - this is kind of getting deep into the whole, you know, gender equity and theory of it all - but licensing and productions at community theatres, regional theatres, schools around the country is such a crucial source of income for playwrights.
Hayley: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
Danielle: Yeah, but you can really only get there if you get to Broadway first, or some other really big major production.
Hayley: Yeah, like that first-class production. Yeah.
Danielle: Exactly. And there are so many equity problems that make it really, really difficult, if not impossible, for women and people of color and trans people to get up to that first-class production…
Hayley: Through that pipeline, mmhmmm.
Danielle: …that they never get the opportunity to have that licensing. So we're trying to kind of, you know, circumvent that system that holds so many people back and try to get some income for these playwrights through licensing out their work.
Amy: Love that!
Hayley: Oh, I just got goosebumps, Danielle, that’s so cool!
Amy: Yeah, we are here for the gender equity of it all. Please get into the weeds with us. We're here for it.
Hayley: Yeah, we love the weeds. So Danielle, you've been talking about your work with SheNYC. I know that you're also a composer. Do you want to tell us a little bit about your creative work with that hat as well?
Danielle: Yeah, so again, that was kind of the earlier iteration of my life in the theatre, is working as a pianist. I ended up working as a pianist on this off-Broadway show for like, two years. And the whole time I was working on it, I kept thinking to myself, like, “If I had written this, I would do this differently,” or “I would have done this instead,” or “I really like this part, why do I like this part so much?”
And so by the end of that two-year process, I was like: You know what, why don't we just try to put my money where my mouth is? And if I think I would have written it so much better, why don't I just try writing my own music? That's when I was in college. So I wrote my first musical then. And then it ended up running in New York, Boston, and Chicago. And that was, it was very cool. It was also horribly sexist, which is what set me up for needing to put my feminist rage towards something positive. Which is how SheNYC was born.
But since then, I've done a few more musical projects. My most recent musical, won the Brooklyn Arts Council grant in 2021. Because it was still COVID, we ended up having to do a filmed version of it rather than an in-person production of it, so that's still my “hot, bubbling on the stove” of a music writing project that is just kind of living in one little tiny section of my brain while SheNYC takes over the other 75% of my brain.
Hayley: Yeah, yeah, the juggling.
Danielle: All the juggling.
Hayley: Danielle, across your different hats and the different things that you do, do you have a creative mission that guides you forward? If you could name it, what would it be?
Danielle: I'm just interested in breaking down norms. If there's anything creatively where we say, “Oh, we do this because this is just the way we do it. This is just the way it is. This is what I learned in my class, and this is how it's been done before…”, then I want to, you know, think creatively. Why do we think that way? Why is this the way we do it? And does it need to be that way? And most often, I think the answer is no, fuck it. Let's do something else. Yeah, I think that kind of sums it up.
Amy: That's great.
(Musical transition)
Amy: I'd love to shift gears a little bit and talk about womanhood. Can you tell us a bit about how womanhood fits into your identity and the theatrical work that you do?
Danielle: I'm like a mid-millennial, I'm like right in the smack in the middle, solid millennial. And I think as a woman and as a feminist, that kind of puts you in a very weird spot. Because millennials, on the one hand, did grow up in a much more progressive society where information was more accessible to us, we were able to share information. And all of that leads us towards equity, because when we can share information and we can build off of each other's experiences, then we have more tools and we have more power.
Hayley: Yeah, I mean, like, that's what we're doing with the podcast, right? Like, for example.
Danielle: Exactly! Yes, yes, yes. But at the same time, we're not Gen Z. Millennials are not Gen Z. So there are so many times where I feel like I'm behind the Gen Z people that work with us at SheNYC. So you're kind of in this awkward spot in the middle. And especially having founded SheNYC in 2015, which was before Trump was elected, before the #MeToo movement.
In 2015, “women's theatre” was almost like its own genre that was pushed off to the side and sidelined. And I was always kind of interested in getting rid of that label of like, “women's theatre”. Whether that means integrating theatre by women into the mainstream commercial theater industry, or if that means saying, once again, fuck it, we're not gonna try to integrate ourselves into this industry that doesn't want us there, we'll do our own thing.
Hayley: Like, we'll build our own table over here. Yeah, yeah.
Danielle: Yeah, exactly. So when you said, “What is the idea of womanhood in theatre?”, what came to mind to me is just the sort of colossal shift in growth that has happened from 2015, 2014, till now.
Hayley/Amy: Whoa, yeah.
Danielle: And while there are a million more problems left to solve, I do feel like it is so much less sidelining to be a woman in theatre. It does now feel more like something that you can just be and be professional at, rather than having to be put in your own box, in your own corner, in your own genre. So that makes me a little bit hopeful for the future. I don't think it's enough movement or enough change at all, but I definitely like it a lot better now. That label, idea, concept of being a woman in theatre to me feels much better now than it did way back then in 2014.
Hayley: No, but, like, you're right. So much has changed.
Amy: Yeah, but I hear you. Yeah. Like, I very much remember coming up in theatre spaces and feeling like I couldn't bring my feminism into theatre spaces.
I was in a conservatory, and a lot of the people came to conservatory straight from high school. I had actually gone to college and lived in the world for a bit, and I had been working as a sex educator, adult sex education. And so I came into conservatory with this radical feminist mindset, and like, that was totally shut down in that space. There was so much - specifically, body negativity - which was, in conservatory, the main way that anti-feminism reared its ugly head. And so I would try to do things like, “Oh, we're gonna have Love Your Body Week,” which is a thing we had at my college, which I loved. And people would just be like, “Why would we want to do that?” Like, just totally, not my audience.
And now, at the same conservatory, they have all sorts of things in place to protect students’ mental health, to encourage students’ personal growth along with professional growth. Like, the world has just changed so much. And I remember coming up in those spaces and feeling like to be a feminist in theatre - if I spoke that out loud and lived my values, I could never be mainstream. It was a choice of, like, you can be a feminist and go do some way, way, way off-Broadway thing that nobody will ever see. Or you can swallow your feminism and like, go to Broadway. It was a choice.
Danielle: 100%.
Amy: So yeah, I'm also happy to see that changing,
Hayley: Yeah, definitely. Well, Danielle, how has your womanhood impacted your artistry and your experience in the industry for the better? And then conversely, how has it been a challenge for you or a barrier, if you would say that?
Danielle: Yeah. First of all, I think it has helped me in all of the ways that - like, studies show that Fortune 500 companies that have women on the board end up making more money.
Hayley: Rock. They rock.
Danielle: Yeah. Yes, I mean, the fact that you bring a different perspective into the room, the fact that you are able to, I think, more easily challenge the status quo because you're just like, “Wait, why do we do it that way? That doesn't make sense.” Little things.
Like, my first Broadway internship was in building operations. I worked at Jujamcyn theaters, which is, like, a Broadway theatre owner, and I was an intern in their building operations department. And I worked with men, and so for men, it's easy to dress professionally and also dress in a way that is practical when you're doing building operations work. But then, like, as a woman coming into this space, I was like, “What do I wear to work every day?” Like, everybody else in this office is wearing their blazer and their pencil skirt and their heels, but I have to, like, literally lug hundreds of Broadway seat cushions from the eighth floor of the St. James Theatre down to the basement of the St. James Theatre.
Hayley: Yeah, so if you’re wearing heels, like, good luck to you.
Amy: Yeah, good luck with that.
Danielle: Right, exactly. And I kind of brought up that question a couple of times, and people were like, “Oh, we never thought of that before. Like, we never thought of what that would be.” And so, there are just natural ways that as a woman, you bring a different perspective into the workplace. And I think that that has definitely helped me be successful a lot of the time.
For exactly the same reason, it also poses all of these challenges, where sometimes if you're in this male-dominated space, people don't know what to do with you, people don't know how to speak to you, people don't know how to listen to you, which is an even bigger problem. And then it can create a whole world of risks.
I don't know if it's the same nowadays. Any of these big commercial entities in the theatre, at that time, when I was first coming up - 2013, 14, 15, 16, 17 - they were very male-dominated. And so when you go into a space where you're the only woman in the room, especially if you're younger, you constantly feel at risk, and you constantly feel nervous, scared, whether that's like, scared for your physical safety or scared that nobody's going to take you seriously, scared to speak up in a meeting because everybody just talks over you. It is like a constant, just like a constant drone running in the back of your mind. You may not at any given moment feel legit, like, “Oh my God, I'm so scared. I have to run away right now.” But there's just this little voice in the back of your mind constantly that is exhausting.
And then every once in a while, it blows up into something that's bigger than the little voice in the back of your mind. And instances like those are the ones that filled me with my feminist rage that I needed to channel into SheNYC. So two sides of the same coin. Hard experiences, but ones that also led me to build something new.
Hayley: Yeah. I just want to name that that's incredible that you took that rage and the systemic inequities and said, “I'm not gonna just sit here, like, I'm gonna do something about that.” That's awesome.
Amy: Absolutely.
Danielle: I got to this point where - I had several really bad sexist experiences with men who held positions of power over me, all in a row. And I just was so angry that I didn't - I literally couldn't exist as a human being. I remember being on the subway one day, and I was going to some rehearsal with one of these horrible people. And I remember I was just like, gripping the subway pole so tight that I was like white-knuckling the subway pole. And I was like, “I'm not even anywhere right now. I'm not at rehearsal. I'm not…” This was like, before the days of iPhones, so I'm not even like, getting angry emails on my phone. I'm literally just sitting on the subway, and I am so angry that I like, can't even control what my body is doing.
That was a real “Aha!” moment for me where I was like, I can't just continue to live within this system. Some people can do that. Some people are capable of swallowing it and doing it. I, personally, am not capable of that, so I have to do something else. I have to either carve my own path elsewhere, or I have to find some way to channel this into something more productive. I can't just continue to work within this structure without doing anything about it.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: Yeah. I love that about you. You are a mover and shaker. That's so cool. So speaking of, if you could make a change or a couple to the theatre industry, what would it be? And I say that with the full recognition that you are literally making the changes that you want to see right now. So, like, tell us what's next. What's the current battle? What's the next battle?
Danielle: Okay, this is a pipe dream battle. This is not anything that I think could happen anytime soon.
Hayley: Come on, pipe dream! (laughter)
Danielle: Nothing that I think could happen anytime soon, but I think a lot of people don't realize that theater owners are kind of the last line of defense of the white patriarchy that controls the Broadway industry. There are so many millions of other factors that affect what ends up actually coming to Broadway and making it to Broadway and what kind of people that represents. There are a million different factors, but the very final gatekeeper are the theatre owners, who get to say either yes or no. “Yes, you can rent my theatre” or “No, you cannot rent my theatre.” They're the final people that have that last check on the industry and what makes it to Broadway.
The theatre owners are all white men. They are all incredibly wealthy, generationally so. And they all have a very specific goal at the end of the day, which is to make money. They only make money off of shows that can pay their rent. And what bothers me so much about this is the fact that they have so much money already. They could certainly afford to take a risk every once in a while and cut someone a deal, give someone a Broadway theatre for free, give someone a Broadway theatre for an extremely discounted rate to get something that really matters on Broadway, and they have yet to do anything like that.
So, I would love to see a day where the theatre owners start getting called out, start taking responsibility for the things that end up on Broadway. And start making some real changes like that and play an active role in making the industry more equitable. And/or I would love to see the government take over a couple Broadway theatres to make them more like nonprofit government entities.
Amy: Ugh, that is the dream.
Danielle: Yeah, like how in the UK, the government takes such a more active role in funding the arts than they do here in the US. I think that that's important. I mean, Broadway is one of the biggest, if not the biggest, economic drivers to New York City. In the political world, people always complain that we don't make anything in America anymore. We import things, but we don't make anything in America anymore. We do! We make art and entertainment.
Hayley: That’s so true, Danielle, oh my god.
Amy: We sure do!
Hayley: You just blew my mind. Yes, we make Broadway musicals and plays. Like, we do that.
Danielle: We make movies, we make TV shows, we make music, and everybody all around the world listens to our music, listens to our Broadway soundtracks, does their own local productions of our Broadway shows, they watch our movies. So many people around the world speak some amount of English because they listen to our music all day and they watch our movies.
Our biggest export in this country is art, is media and entertainment, and so the government should have the level of buy-in to the art and entertainment industry that they do... I mean, how often do we hear politicians talking about the auto industry, and, you know, switching over to green energy instead of coal? I mean, there are only, like, 30,000 people in America who still work in coal, but we hear politicians talk about the coal industry all the freaking time.
Millions of Americans work in the entertainment industry. This is our biggest export as a country, the biggest economic driver for our country. The government needs to start treating it like that and treating it like a real industry. So anyway, I want government buy-in to make this industry stronger, because it's only going to make our economy stronger and the country as a whole stronger.
Amy: That's incredible, Danielle.
Hayley: We're just both so excited right now, yeah.
Amy: I think you blew both our minds, and I'm really excited about it. And the reason why is because I say all the time that we need more government funding for the arts, but the route that I usually take to get there is a values-aligned one, where the arts reflect the values of our country and also are important in terms of like, raising our children to be the citizens that we want them to be. Raising our adults, frankly, to be the citizens that we want them to be. And the values alignment, which, I think, is a harder ask in the cynical world that we live in.
So I love that you connect it to an actual economic - like, no, this is our biggest export. This is why the government needs to support the arts. Because both are true. And like, why doesn't the government support the freaking arts? Come on.
Hayley: Do you have ideas, Danielle, for our listeners? Like you were saying, this is sort of like a big dream thing, but do you have ideas for how our listeners and we can get involved in advocating for that within the government?
Danielle: Yes. Oh, I have ideas. So, I also, I side gig and work on political campaigns. I'm trying to wind it down because I need to focus on SheNYC full-time. But this is another weird piece of my background.
I think that people who work in the arts, especially in New York City, don't realize how powerful they are as a voting bloc. First of all, one-third of workers - people who are old enough to work in New York City - one-third are freelancers. Most of those are in the entertainment and media industry. Broadway alone makes more money for New York State's economy than every single one of our New York State sports teams combined.
We are a huge industry when it comes to… Tens of thousands of employees here in the city, union members, freelancers, and everybody who then touches the entertainment industry in some way. For example, restaurants and hotels should care about what's good for the entertainment industry, because that's how people are coming to the city, eating in their restaurants, staying in their hotels, so on and so forth.
So, I think that people who work in the arts need to start realizing their collective voting power. People in the arts tend to just vote for whoever the progressive candidate is, or whoever the Democratic candidate is. It drives me mad to see how these candidates just take our votes and don't have any arts policy on their website.
Hayley: That’s such a good point, Danielle. Wow.
Danielle: We should be holding candidates responsible - if they want our votes, they better have an arts policy. And we have the collective power to do that. We're not some small fringe industry. We have the power to do that. So, I would love to see arts workers and artists, before you volunteer for a candidate, before you vote for a candidate, demand that they have an arts policy.
I say that with the caveat that we are in unprecedented times here in the United States, so like, you should vote regardless. Please don't take that as an excuse not to vote.
But if it's like a local city council candidate, a state Senate candidate that you really want to get behind, you've got some free time so you want to knock doors, volunteer, donate a few dollars… Put pressure on them to have an arts policy first and get all your friends who live in the district to do the same thing.
Hayley: Yeah, that's awesome.
Amy: I love that. Oh, Danielle! Goodness!
Danielle: I told you, I'm here for the rants!
Hayley: I love it!
Amy: I'm excited about it. I'm so happy that we are having you on the podcast, because every time I've heard you speak in SheNYC context or whatever, I just always get so excited about what you have to say. It's great.
Hayley: Yeah, this is awesome.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: So Danielle, I love all these things that we're talking about. You do so much. So can you tell us a little bit about how you balance all of the different hats you wear in the industry with, like, being a human and taking care of yourself?
Danielle: Uh… I don't know that I have healthy advice on that. (laughter) Um, I can tell you how I do it, but with the caveat that I would not recommend anybody else live the life that I live.
First of all, I’m just a very Type A, organized type of person, so I organize my time and my tasks down to a T. I also don't want to have children, so I know a lot of people want to prioritize that in their lives and make sure that they have the time and space for that. I do not want that. It's something I've always known that I don't want. The idea of pregnancy actually, like, freaks me out so much. I feel like it's like a horror movie.
So I know that I have all of this extra time in my life that other people might not have who do want to prioritize having children. So I try and think of it that way. I am not making space for this huge colossal thing that takes up so much time and energy, so instead, I can put that energy into something else. And for me right now, that's SheNYC. And like I said, it's about to be our 10-year anniversary, so I think of it as like, I have a little 10-year-old now that takes so much time and energy and needs a lot of nurturing and a lot of support. They're not, you know, old enough to go off on their own yet.
Yeah, so that's one that's like a pretty major factor. Otherwise, I've never been the type of person that can like, sit still. So many friends and my husband have gotten mad at me because I cannot just sit and watch a movie, and I hate going to the movie theatre. Because I'm like, why would I sit in the dark? No, I want to have my laptop out, and I can watch the movie, and I can also be doing this, and I can also be taking care of these things, and I can also be crafting. I could be doing so many, different things all at once. So yeah, multitasking, being Type A, not having children, and, having no, like, real boundaries for myself. That's - yeah, again, would not recommend to anyone, but that's how I do it.
Hayley: I love the honesty. It's great.
Amy: Yeah, I have seen some friends of mine who are couples who do not want to have children posting about like, “We are child free. So let's intentionally live our lives as if we are child free and like, purposefully do all the things that we can do because we don't have children.” And as someone who does have a child, I just like, yes! Yes, please do that. Like, do that for all of us who can't.
Danielle: I kind of see it as like a privilege, I can do these other things with my time, and I do it for people who can't. So, yeah.
Hayley: Yeah, I'm the same way, Danielle. I also don't want kids, and I feel very similarly about it. So it's cool to hear you talk about that too.
Amy: Danielle, I'd love to hear about: What are you most proud of in your life and in your work so far?
Danielle: Hmm. Well, we just brought SheNYC to a fourth city this year. I just got back from Dallas. So we have branches now in New York, LA, Dallas, and Atlanta. And I feel really proud of that, because…
We've kind of lost the heart and the meaning of community theatre. Way back in the day, like the ancient times, it was very much a community thing that was created and written and built and performed by people within your community. Nowadays, everything has to go through the Broadway bottleneck. Community theatres, regional theatres around the country are all - you know, they do their own production of Mamma Mia, and they do their production of whatever play won the Tony on Broadway last year.
And so, we here in New York are creating theatre that works for us as New Yorkers - you know, with all of the inequities worked into that, with many caveats - but we're creating art that works here in New York, and then we're forcing everyone across the country to do the same art. And it doesn't necessarily feel authentic or feel like a community event anymore. And there are so many people, especially outside of New York, who are like, “Oh yeah I hate musicals. I hate theatre.”
Amy: Yes!
Hayley: That’s so true.
Danielle: And I think they're not wrong. If what you're seeing at your local theatre doesn't mean anything to you and your issues that you're facing in your local community, then yeah, I wouldn't really care about it that much either. So part of the mission of us bringing SheNYC to these different cities is to try and, like, reinvigorate that idea of homegrown, local, original theatre.
Hayley: That’s cool!
Danielle: So in Dallas, for example, we had two shows. One was about a girl and her mother who got separated coming to the border from Guatemala, and the border crisis is obviously a very personal topic to people who live in Texas.
And then another show was about the murder of Botham Jean, who was a Black man killed by the police in Dallas. So it happened in Dallas, and local Dallas artists wrote a play adaptation of what happened there in Dallas. And these two shows were so meaningful to this particular audience, because it resonated with them in what's important to them in their community right now.
And so I think people would much rather see that. And also I - as an artist who knows that the art that we create can change people's hearts and minds - I would much rather audiences see work like this than see Mamma Mia again. Sorry to Mamma Mia, it's just the first one that's coming to my mind. So yeah, I'm really proud that we're able to facilitate that homegrown local theatre, because I think that's what's really gonna change people's perspectives on equity, on women, on these issues that are really important to us in a way that theatre was kind of originally meant to do.
Amy: Yeah. And can build that buy-in, again, for, I mean, local government investment in homegrown theatre. Like, I definitely see that as a future for this industry.
Danielle: Yeah, absolutely.
Hayley: That's awesome.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Danielle, one of the new segments we're doing this season is highlighting the people who inspire us, our Trailblazer of the Week segment. So we're gonna take a moment to uplift the people who inspire us. Amy, who's your Trailblazer of the Week?
Amy: So my Trailblazer of the Week this week is someone that Haley and I met at the RISE Summit. Her name is Maria Porto, and she works with Access Broadway New York. I loved meeting Maria. This is maybe some behind-the-scenes info, but we had a…
Hayley: Inside baseball!
Amy: Yeah, absolutely! We had a full schedule of folks who were signed up to interview with us at this event, and it was a back to back to back to back day. And Maria just came up to us and said, “I'm not signed up, but I would love to interview with you.” And we were like, right in the middle of a million things, and we were like, “We would love to talk with you. We can't do it now. Can you come back later and we'll find a time.” And she did. She came back and came back and came back.
And that stick-to-itiveness and just not taking no for an answer is something that I love so much in theatre advocates, and we see that in a lot of people who are movers and shakers in the world. And I think that's part of the key to making real change in the industry, so I just want to shout out Maria for not taking no for an answer, and…
Hayley: For not taking “Not right now” for an answer.
Amy: Correct, for not taking “Not right now” for an answer, and for really insisting on having her voice heard in a beautiful way that just really stuck with me. So yay, Maria! Hayley, do you want to go next?
Hayley: Sure. My Trailblazer of the Week is actually a group of trailblazers. I just got back from a week developing my musical Plane Girl at Manhattanville University with five wonderful women and non-binary people who really, really inspire me. And these students - they were terrified when we first started the process. And throughout the week, they just really owned who they were and owned the work they were doing.
And just to watch them all blossom and bloom and how they supported each other in that space. And it was their first time doing a 29-hour workshop type thing. And they just really stepped up for each other. And like, seeing women and gender-expansive folks support each other is just like, one of my favorite things in the world. And seeing the way these young people did that so beautifully, they're my trailblazers.
Amy: Yeah! Love that. Danielle, what about you?
Danielle: So last Monday, we did this event at Disney Theatrical, where we were introducing femme scenic designers with Broadway producers, general managers, agents, etc.
Hayley: Oh yeah! I saw a thing on social media about it.
Amy: I saw that! It looked super cool.
Hayley: It looked very cool, yeah.
Danielle: Yeah, it was awesome. And the whole idea was that there are a lot of programs for like, young and emerging arts professionals, especially on the design side. The idea of this was like, find women who are ready to have a Broadway contract right now but just cannot get their foot in the door. So all of the scenic designers we had, they were so talented, had so much great work to present, and have so many insane resume credits, but like, just nobody has ever hired them on a Broadway show.
So two people to shout out with that: Jen Friedland, she's a producer and she founded this sort of umbrella organization called the Theatre Advocacy Collective, which is meant to help bridge, be an umbrella for all of us nonprofit equity organizations in the theatre industry, and find ways that we can work together and, importantly, fundraise together. So I definitely want to shout out Jen Friedland for putting all of that together, and she did so much of the logistical work of pulling that event together last Monday. And it was so awesome.
And then also, Mikiko Suzuki MacAdams was one of our set designers who has worked on literally 21 Broadway shows as an assistant designer but has never been hired as a lead designer. And despite having to face these inequities herself, she's made it a point to be there to mentor and help and bring up the next generation of designers as well. And so she helped with facilitating the event and how the room was gonna be set up and all of that. So the two of them are awesome trailblazers that really deserve a shout-out.
Hayley: That's awesome.
Amy: Love that, yes!
Hayley: So Danielle, before we run away, could you tell our listeners where they can find more information about you and SheNYC on the internet?
Danielle: Yeah! So our website is SheNYCArts.org. You can also follow us on Instagram and TikTok @SheNYCArts. And if you're in one of our other cities, we also have a separate Instagram for @SheATLArts, @SheDFWArts, and @SheLAArts for our Atlanta, Dallas, and Los Angeles branches.
Hayley: Amazing. Thank you so much, Danielle, for being with us today. We're so grateful to have had you on the podcast for our listeners to hear all about the amazing work that you're doing and honestly, just blow our minds and inspire us. So thank you for that.
Amy: Yeah, thank you for everything you shared today.
Danielle: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so glad that you have this platform set up to help share collective wisdom. I love that. Our collective wisdom. That's awesome.
Hayley: Thank you.
Amy: Yeah, awesome! Well, we appreciate you.
Danielle: Thank you.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Wow.
Hayley: My mind is blown.
Amy: My goodness!
Hayley: I love her. So cool.
Amy: I love how Danielle's mind works. Like, I love all of the different, unique areas of expertise that she brings to her work. And just how she takes lessons from all the different parts of her life and applies them to the mission that she's working toward. It’s really, really incredible.
Hayley: It's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. The stuff that she was talking about with the government and like, us as a voting bloc was so wild to me. I mean, I'm sure listeners, you could hear me.
Amy: Well, it’s such a good point? Like, yes, absolutely!
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: And we think - as theatre folks, we socialize ourselves, right? And we are socialized by society to be so, like, “Oh, we're just happy to be here. We're happy to be included. Like, we're so lucky to be able to do this in our lives.” Which, like, yes. And also, are we privileged to work in theatre? Sure. We also work really hard, and we do have specific needs that our government should be held accountable to support us because we provide an important service for the country.
Hayley: Absolutely. So if any of you are politically minded and have ideas for how we can start to make some moves on this, let us know. Because I'm really, really excited about that idea. So let's chat more. All right. Well, Amy, before we go, I just want to hype you up. I just love seeing your eyes light up every time we talk to somebody who inspires you. You were so excited to talk to Danielle today, and were so, like, present and here, and I love seeing that in you. It's really cool,
Amy: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I do. I love being inspired. It's the best feeling, isn't it? Isn't it the best feeling?
Hayley: Yeah, totally.
Amy: Yeah, and like, what a joy with Women & Theatre that we get to just have these conversations with these incredible people. I love this project so much. And you. I want to hype you up because, oh my god, girl, you are like - you are putting on your big girl pants this fall.
Hayley: I'm trying.
Amy: And there are exciting things happening in your life - some of which we've talked about here, some of which we will talk about here at a future date - but I just, I see all the hard work you're putting in, and it is so exciting to see the opportunities start coming your way in like, this giant way. And that's all 100% because of the hard work that you have put in and continue to put in. And I am just so freaking proud of you, and I'm just gonna keep shouting it from the rooftops. how proud I am of you and how happy I am for you.
Hayley: I'm gonna cry, listeners, so I think we should go…
Amy: Before Hayley bawls, yeah.
Hayley: I’m just really emotional. Okay, well, I love you, Amy. I love you, listeners. Beautiful people, like, go…
Amy: Go seek out inspiration!
Hayley: I was gonna say…
Amy: Find something that inspires you, yeah. Find someone that inspires you. Tell them they inspire you.
Hayley: Yeah, tell them, let them know. We love you, we'll talk to you soon, drink a cozy beverage, and enjoy your week. Much love. Bye!
Amy: Bye!
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews! If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show was written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
