S5E1: Jennifer Ashley Tepper
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk with theatre historian, author, and producer Jennifer Ashley Tepper about exploring under-appreciated corners of the theatre industry, embracing the ephemeral nature of theatre and seasons of life, the historical continuum of gender equity, and more. We also highlight Zora Neale Hurston as part of our Women’s History Month Playwrights You Should Know series, in partnership with Expand the Canon. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Guest: Jennifer Ashley Tepper
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Women Writing Musicals: The Legacy that the History Books Left Out
Women Writing Musicals accompanying playlist
Women’s History Month:
Expand the Canon - Spunk by Zora Neale Hurston
Trailblazers of the Week:
Michael Radi - Musical Theatre Writing Collective
Kelly Bishop - The Third Gilmore Girl: A Memoir
Join us for the Women & Theatre Season 5 Launch Party on February 27 on Zoom!
Guest Bio:
Jennifer Ashley Tepper (she/her) is an acclaimed theatre historian, author, and producer. She is the conceiver of The Jonathan Larson Project, which starts previews in February 2025 at the Orpheum Theatre, off-Broadway, following an acclaimed 2018 concert premiere and cast recording. She has been the Creative and Programming Director at 54 Below for the past decade. She has curated or produced over 7,000 shows in this position. Her leadership at the beloved venue has gained praise from publications including The Huffington Post, The New York Times, Buzzfeed, Playbill, Newsday, The New York Post, and more.
Tepper's four volumes of The Untold Stories of Broadway book series have been called an "inspiring Must-Read" by NBC New York and occupied the #1 spot on Amazon.com's Best Sellers List in Broadway & Musicals. Her new book, Women Writing Musicals: The Legacy that the History Books Left Out, was published in November 2024. Women Writing Musicals is the first-ever book about female musical theatre writers.
Tepper is the producer of the musicals Be More Chill, Broadway Bounty Hunter, and Love In Hate Nation, recent projects that are part of a decade-long collaboration with the group known as Joe Iconis & Family. On Broadway, Tepper has also worked on [title of show], The Performers, Godspell, Macbeth, and The Parisian Woman. She was historian consultant on the tick, tick... BOOM! movie (directed by Lin-Manuel Miranda for Netflix) and co-creator of the Bistro Award-winning concert series If It Only Even Runs A Minute. Her work as a theatre historian also encompasses celebrated live talks and events, including at TEDxBroadway, BroadwayCon, The Museum of Broadway, Thespian Festivals, and more. Tepper received a 2020 Lincoln Center Emerging Artist Award. She was named one of the 10 professionals on Backstage Magazine's "1st Annual Broadway Future Power List", which stated: "Proving herself both a zeitgeist predictor and theatrical historian with her eclectic programming, Tepper is leading the conversation on contemporary musical theatre.”
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello beautiful people, and welcome back to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cozy beverage and join us as we talk to women and gender-expansive folks about their experiences at the intersection of womanhood and theatre.
Hayley: On the pod, we cultivate open conversations across identities and professional roles…
Amy: We look for opportunities to support one another in growing our careers…
Hayley: And we pool our collective wisdom to build the equitable theatrical spaces of the future.
(Music)
Hayley: Hi Amy, how are you?
Amy: Hi! Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to see you on video! Look at us!
Hayley: Here we are, beautiful people! We're live and in person. Amy, let's get right into it with the Roses and Thorns.
Amy: Let's do it! My rose for this week… I'm just really leaning into gratitude this week. It's been a tricky time the last few weeks and months. There's been a lot of things that haven't been going the way that I wish that they would go and miscommunications and a lot of icky stuff going on. And I just, I've been really leaning into gratitude this week and taking my time to to name the things in my life that I'm grateful for, that bring me joy, that I'm so lucky to have. And it's been helping, like it should. But yeah, it's really, it's been good. So that's my rose.
My thorn - I feel like I'm a broken record. I say this every time, but it's just been the “busy busy”. Like it's just, it's, it's constant, it's nonstop. I am actively working on ways to make my life less hectic in the next few weeks and months, and I'm really excited about those shifts and to build a world that is a bit more sustainable for my brain and my energy. But yeah, right now it's busy, busy, busy, and that's the thorn. What about you?
Hayley: My rose is that I finally got to see my spouse after eight weeks of not seeing them. So that's amazing. Just to like, be able to sit and do nothing together has been so good. So good for my mental health, so good for everything in my life. So that's my rose. Very simple.
My thorn - I'm just like, burnt out. It's the end of the year, I'm running towards the new year, and I really need a break. And my - like, a secondary rose is that I'm about to get that break. But for now, I'm feeling very burnt out. And I really need to like, turn off my brain and have a break. And just - reminding myself that rest is productive and rest is important has been a struggle for me my whole life. And it just always comes up during the holidays. It's just like, let yourself be, let yourself play the video game, read the book that you haven't gotten to read yet, all that stuff, so…
Amy: Oof. You said that “Rest is productive” and it just, like, hit me like a ton of bricks.
Hayley: That is my December mantra, is “Rest is productive.” Maybe that'll help some of you. I want to shift gears, because I think that Jennifer is going to be with us shortly, who is our guest for this week. We're very excited to speak with Jennifer Ashley Tepper, especially about her new book, Women Writing Musicals: The Legacy That the History Books Left Out. This is like - I mean, we're the target audience for this book.
Amy: Hayley, this book was written for us. Like, this is our book.
Hayley: It’s for us. Yes. It's her book, but it's our book too.
Amy: But it's our book too, yeah. I'm so excited to hear more about the book and more about Jennifer and her world. And like, I love the things she's working on. She's so inspiring. So, I'm psyched.
Hayley: Totally. Let's chat with Jennifer!
(Musical transition)
Amy: But first, we are so excited because next week is the start of Women’s History Month! For Women’s History Month, we’ve teamed up with Expand the Canon to bring you a series of Playwrights You Should Know About.
Hayley: This week’s Playwright You Should Know About is Zora Neale Hurston. Zora Neale Hurston was one of the most influential, inspired, and well-known writers of the Harlem Renaissance. Her writing is characterized by her authentic portraits of contemporary African American and Black culture and communities, lyrical writing style, and roots in folktales and magical realism. If you’re dreaming about a combination of the musical folklore of Hadestown and Oklahoma!, check out her play Spunk, written in 1935. Learn more about the play and about Zora on This is a Classic, a podcast by Expand the Canon.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Today, we are very excited to speak with Jennifer Ashley Tepper! Jennifer is an acclaimed theatre historian, author, and producer. She is the conceiver of The Jonathan Larson Project, which is currently at the Orpheum Theatre, off-Broadway, following an acclaimed 2018 concert premiere and cast recording. Jennifer has been the Creative and Programming Director at 54 Below for the past decade. She has curated or produced over 7,000 shows in this position. Her leadership at the beloved venue has gained praise from publications including The Huffington Post, The New York Times, Buzzfeed, Playbill, Newsday, The New York Post, and more.
Tepper's four volumes of The Untold Stories of Broadway book series have been called an "inspiring must-read" by NBC New York and occupied the #1 spot on Amazon.com's Best Sellers List in Broadway & Musicals. Her new book, Women Writing Musicals: The Legacy that the History Books Left Out, was published in November 2024. Women Writing Musicals is the first-ever book about female musical theatre writers.
Tepper is the producer of the musicals Be More Chill, Broadway Bounty Hunter, and Love In Hate Nation, recent projects that are part of a decade-long collaboration with the group known as Joe Iconis & Family. On Broadway, Tepper has also worked on [title of show], The Performers, Godspell, Macbeth, and The Parisian Woman. She was historian consultant on the tick, tick... BOOM! movie (directed by Lin-Manuel Miranda for Netflix) and co-creator of the Bistro Award-winning concert series If It Only Even Runs A Minute. Jennifer’s work as a theatre historian also encompasses celebrated live talks and events, including at TEDxBroadway, BroadwayCon, The Museum of Broadway, Thespian Festivals, and more. Jennifer received a 2020 Lincoln Center Emerging Artist Award. She was named one of the 10 professionals on Backstage Magazine's "1st Annual Broadway Future Power List", which stated: "Proving herself both a zeitgeist predictor and theatrical historian with her eclectic programming, Tepper is leading the conversation on contemporary musical theatre.”
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people. Jennifer, welcome to Women & Theatre, we're so grateful to have you here today! Before we get started, could you share your pronouns and tell us a little bit about the different things that you do in theatrical spaces?
Jennifer: Absolutely. I'm so excited to talk to you both today. I'm Jennifer Ashley Tepper, pronouns are she/her. I am a theatre historian. I am Creative and Programming Director at the venue 54 Below. Author of the Untold Stories of Broadway books and my new book Women Writing Musicals: The Legacy that the History Books Left Out, which just came out on November 19th. I am the conceiver of The Jonathan Larson Project, a musical which has been in development for over 10 years that just got announced this week for a world premiere Off-Broadway. So a lot of exciting stuff that I'm excited for us to chat about! And I generally wear a lot of different hats in theatre, so you know, a lot of hats even in addition to those.
Amy: You are among multi-hatted women here.
Jennifer: Multi-hyphenated women, nothing better.
Amy: Jennifer, to start us off - you just told us about a whole bunch of exciting things that we are going to get into. But I would love to hear first: What is something, anything, that is inspiring you right now?
Jennifer: I have thought a lot recently about my number one inspiration, which is New York City. This year was my 20th New York anniversary. Every single day in New York inspires me. When I was writing my Women Writing Musicals book, I realized that, as familiar as I am with the physical theatres and being amidst the history that we're amidst in the theatre district, I wasn't as well steeped in the early days of theatre in New York City at the lower tip of Manhattan, where entertainments and what became musicals first began. And there's literally always something to get excited about, discovering a new place that you didn't realize you were connected to. This is just my favorite place in the universe. And every day I wake up in New York City, I'm like, “I live here!” After 20 years, I still feel like that.
Hayley: Oh my gosh, I'm living for this energy. I could not relate more.
So before we get into the meat and potatoes of this interview, we'd love to do a quick flash round of questions for you. These are just for fun, don't think, just speak. So my first question for you is: If you were an animal, Jennifer, what would you be?
Jennifer: I sometimes say a giraffe because I'm like, tall and orange, I have orange hair. (laughter) But I really feel like I'd be an octopus because they have arms and they can reach in eight directions at the same time.
Hayley: Okay, love, yeah.
Amy: Wow. What a great - yeah, what a great answer. What is your weirdest hobby, Jennifer?
Jennifer: Weirdest hobby? I mean, I'm looking around at my apartment, which looks like what my dorm room looked like, and my office, and my room as a child. And it's like, I can't have any wall space available. It has to all be covered with like, theatre posters and tickets and playbills. Maybe, like, “theatre adult decorating energy” could be a hobby.
Hayley: I love it. Yeah, there you go. Jennifer, do you have a quote or a mantra that's speaking to you right now?
Jennifer: Something I've been thinking about a lot is a Jonathan Larson quote that is related to The Jonathan Larson Project, which has been occupying so much of my heart these days as we dive back into things. And Jonathan Larson wrote down, “I honor life, and with it, my life in theatre”. And he wrote that down several times in his notebooks. Very simple, very clear, and honestly, it's just a mantra that resonates.
Amy: That's great. Here’s an easy one: What's your favorite musical?
Jennifer: For so many years, my favorite musical is and was Merrily We Roll Along. And that's always been my answer. It's a musical that changed my life, shaped my life, made me understand so many things about complicated musicals, under-appreciated musicals. It spoke to me so deeply and it still does. But there's a number of musicals in my top 10 that do flip around into the number one spot. You know, A Chorus Line is one of my favorites. All of Joe Iconis' musicals that I've worked on and that I haven't are in that, you know, top group. So it does vary a little bit day to day, but Merrily is always up there.
Hayley: Fabulous. One of my faves as well. What's your song of the moment, Jennifer?
Jennifer: Song of the moment… You know, I have been working on a playlist that is related to my book, which we can get into like, the details of that.
Hayley: I can’t wait.
Jennifer: One of the reasons it's not done yet is because I have been dying that there are so many cast recordings that aren't on the streaming services, and I've been trying to cross-reference in order to make this playlist of musicals women have written that like, covers as much ground as possible. But as I've been listening to this, I have to share it, because right now only I'm enjoying it and other people have to hear it. And it goes from, “We Are Descended” from Dessa Rose, lyric by Lynn Ahrens, the first track on the playlist is: “We are descended from a long, strong line of women.” And you're just like, what?? And then you get to “So Much Better” and you get to, like, “Forget About the Boy” and you're just like, “Women writing musicals!” So all the songs on there have been really resonating and living with me. I hope I have it finished soon. It's big. It's a long playlist.
Amy: Yeah! I'm here for a book with an accompanying playlist. That's so exciting.
Hayley: Yes, fabulous. Can you tell our listeners, Jennifer, a little bit about how you came to theatre and how you came to your creative work?
Jennifer: Sure! So I grew up in a family where no one ever worked in theatre, but everyone really loved theatre. Everyone in my family generally is in medicine. So my mom's an occupational therapist, my dad's a doctor. My family was all about cast albums and going to tours and was so supportive of theatre, but I was the first person in my family to go like, “Oh, I really want to do this.”
So I grew up in South Florida in Boca Raton. And I was so lucky to be in a public school that had an amazing theatre program. I was so lucky to go to theatre camp, local theatre camp that really nurtured my love for it. And I was just so lucky to find so many of my people when I was growing up that responded to me being like, “I'm obsessed with this cast recording. You have to listen to it too.” Or, you know, “Let's do this musical next year.” And so I really found that at a young age, I loved performing and I loved writing and I loved all these things, but what I loved the most was sharing my love of musicals.
And as that evolved through the years, I thought, “I have a unique niche,” where like, I love new musicals, I love under-appreciated musicals, I love theatre history. I want to make shows happen, but I also want to interact with, like, the history of it all. So yeah, I was really lucky to have a lot of support from family and friends as I carved out that niche and made my way in the professional world in New York as well.
I went to NYU, graduated from Tisch in 2008. And my first couple of professional jobs in the theatre were incredibly influential. The three internships that I had when I was in college were at the York Theatre, which treasures under-appreciated musicals; the Rodgers and Hammerstein Organization, then run by Ted Chapin, who was and is a great hero of mine, and I learned so much about licensing and about musical theatre from that perspective. And then the third internship I had was with the creators of the musical [title of show]. And all three of those internships were because I, you know, did blind outreach.
Hayley: Send the cold email, everybody.
Jennifer: Yeah! Cold emails, cold letters…
Hayley: Just putting it out there. Or like, letter or whatever.
Jennifer: Yes, all of that. Just all that outreach. And so I actually directed and created a show when I was at NYU that I invited the [title of show] creators to attend. Then we connected, I ended up interning for them through this magical series of events. And then when the show went to Broadway, I ended up being the director's assistant the summer after I graduated. So my, like, catapult into professional theatre at the Lyceum, where I later returned to produce Be More Chill, and which has held a large amount of importance in my life, was so exciting.
And I had a lot of really wonderful early opportunities. At the same time, as I really did also struggle to find a full-time job in theatre, a place to, you know, do what I wanted to do exactly. I could not say more about, like, those opportunities I had during my first few years out of college, but at the same time I also was, like, doing day jobs and, like, applying for things I didn't get. Babysitting and tutoring and, you know, it was not a straight line to get anywhere in the business.
Hayley: I just want to underline what you just said, because I feel like we often forget how circuitous paths to success can be. And I think that it's easy to sort of, like, think when you're early in your career, like, “How is this ever going to work out?” And just remember that it's never, it's never really that straight line. It's so rare that that's the case.
Amy: So can you talk to us about how you came to start writing your books? I'd love to hear about that.
Jennifer: Yeah, so my book Women Writing Musicals, it's the first book I've written outside of my Untold Stories of Broadway book series, and it's the first book I've written that's not interview-based. And as I was writing Untold Stories of Broadway, and through the years as a historian, as a programming director, wearing all the hats that I wear, women writing musicals became a topic that I was specifically interested in. I've always been so fascinated by the corners of the theatre that aren't often explored, whether it's, you know, jobs that people aren't interviewed often about getting interviewed, whether it's shows that weren't appreciated, like, hearing their stories.
So Women Writing Musicals came about because during early COVID, like that time when we were all washing our groceries and being very sad and, you know, dealing with all things pandemic, I thought, “Okay. Like, I am sitting in my apartment by myself, like so many of us were. I have this opportunity. What do I want to do?” And at first I thought I wanted to, like, read 500 books. And I did read a lot of books, but I thought, I have this book that I could start writing that I maybe wouldn't have had time to write otherwise.
And I started working on it, and it immediately, the research of trying to dig into - what would it be like to have a whole pantheon of women who'd written musicals? Not just, like, these wonderful heroes, Betty Comden and Lynn Ahrens and Jeanine Tesori. But like, what would it be like to really dive into how many women have done this, all of the histories people don't know?
And within a few days of research, I was like, “This is the best idea I've ever had.” I was like, “Oh, this book doesn't exist yet. And it really should.” But also, in a time when there wasn't a lot to hang on to, I would wake up and I would put on an album from one of these musicals, and I would start reading articles from another era. And these women, I like to say they really kept me company during COVID. I got so inspired by their careers, their stories, their musicals. The reason it took four years was, like, the amount of information in this book, the amount of resources… There's 300+ women in this book, and I just tried really hard to get so many things right about it that it took some time to research and then write and then edit.
Amy: What a joy, what a dream project though! Especially for during such a difficult time.
Jennifer: Definitely. It also, like - intersecting with that, too, was… I talk about this a little bit in the introduction of the book, but people who make theatre have survived throughout enormous adversity in the past, and I thought about women writing musicals, but theatre people in general, too. What was it like to write during World War II? And what was it like to be a woman in theatre during the Great Depression? And, you know, how did people who lived through the 1918 flu pandemic affect theatre? So there were all of these echoes of history that kind of made the book feel more relevant than ever as I was starting to research it. And they still feel very relevant.
Hayley: Yeah, I was just gonna say, I feel like even speaking to - just me right now, looking at 2025, I've had a lot of existential thoughts about, like, “Where does theatre fit into this world that we're going into?” And that there's so much that theatre can do for us, and also, like, what are we gonna be battling? And so I just really appreciate that perspective of, like, “We have been through a lot as a community and as theatre makers, and like, we will continue to endure. ” Yeah, that's a beautiful perspective to share today.
So you have so much going on, Jennifer. You touched on some of them. I would love to hear more about The Jonathan Larson Project, though, because I know you were saying it's filling so much of your brain space, so tell us about it, we want to know more.
Jennifer: Yeah, this is so wild because - I'm so excited to be talking to you both today. It took us a minute to schedule this. And like we were talking about before we started recording, when we first started trying to plan out this interview, which wasn't very long ago, The Jonathan Larson Project hadn't even been announced yet for its Off-Broadway world premiere production. And now it has been.
Hayley: So maybe it was just beshert, just meant to be.
Amy: Absolutely, meant to be.
Jennifer: Yeah, the stars align! Like, we needed to… Honestly, that's so true, because I did do a book event earlier this week and I was like, thank god The Jonathan Larson Project was announced because I've been like, exploding. You know when you have big news and you can’t talk about it?
Amy: You just want to tell everyone, yeah!
Jennifer: Yeah! So I started working on The Jonathan Larson Project over 10 years ago. When Jonathan Larson passed away unexpectedly at age 35 in 1996, he left behind tons of boxes of scripts and journals and tapes and sheet music, like, all of these things that his wonderful, wonderful family, preserved everything and gave it to the Library of Congress, where librarians have taken such great care of it.
And so I spent multiple years diving into those files, and going, “Okay, well, is there a show, is there a song cycle, is there a revue, is there a musical of Jonathan Larson's songs that have been left behind?” And I discovered, like, multiple songs that no one had ever heard. Songs that had never been in a production, that had only ever been heard in like, you know, musicals he had that didn't get produced or, you know, songs he wrote for the radio that he hoped would be recorded but weren't. And there were all of these songs that really felt like not only wonderful, inspiring, galvanizing, thrilling work on their own, but like they fit together into a narrative, into a story.
I discovered this song, “The Truth is a Lie”, which is essentially Jonathan Larson's take on fake news, literally the weekend after Trump was elected…
Hayley/Amy: Oh my gosh!
Jennifer: I was in DC being like, “I can't believe I'm in DC right now”. And Jonathan Larson reached through time and, like, spoke to me through a song. Which happened multiple times - you know, there's a song called “White Male World” that's like, “Wait, this wasn't written in 2025?” Like, it's crazy how personal, political all of his songs that so deserve to be heard on a stage are. And so we premiered a concert version of the show in 2018, which was so special.
And from the beginning, I've been collaborating with one of my closest collaborators, Charlie Rosen, who is a musical genius, two-time Tony Award winner, but really went deep with me into what Jonathan Larson's intentions were. Because a lot of how these songs existed was like the 1983 version of a voice note. You know, it was like, they weren't fully realized.
Hayley: Like, on tapes and stuff?
Jennifer: Yeah. And like, oh, he recorded this with a Casio keyboard in his apartment at 2am. It was like, beautiful to kind of go, “Oh, but what would he have wanted this to sound like with a band or with actors or in a show?” And so, you know, we worked on that, and in 2018, we did this beautiful 12-performance concert run at 54 Below that was, like, just the most special and wonderful.
And then we started developing the show further, and we got to do a cast album, which we're so proud of. The cast recording is incredible. I'm just, like, as proud of it as anything I've ever done. And we kept developing the show, and then COVID happened, the backlog of shows from the pandemic happened. The producers of the show, who are also the founders of 54 Below, were so committed to this, and they're such heroes of mine always. And they never stopped saying, “How do we move this forward?” As did I.
And so, earlier this year, we did a workshop production of the theatrical version of the show, directed by John Simpkins, who is one of my favorite directors on earth. He directs the Joe Iconis Christmas Extravaganza, among many other things, which we just finished this past weekend, but he had to be the director of this. The way that he has moved this piece forward, the way that he is collaborating with designers, the way that we're realizing this as something in a theatrical setting, it's so exciting to me. And so we did this workshop, and now, you know, we found out that we got the Orpheum.
So much of theatre is real estate. And it's all about, like, is there an opening in a place where you can do the thing you need to do? So it truly was maybe - I think it was literally the morning after my book release that it was like, “Oh, it really seems like we got this theatre that would work for us.”
Amy/Hayley: Wow!
Jennifer: And so, it's just been this wild couple of weeks where - you know, I had this crazy year in 2018/2019, where I produced Be More Chill on Broadway. And like, all this other stuff was happening at once. I was working on the Tick, Tick…Boom! movie, all of these things. And the past couple of weeks have felt like, “Oh, welcome back, 2018!” But of course, it's all new stuff and it's all new, you know, wonderful things happening. But it feels similar, where I'm like, “Oh, I'm not sleeping, but it's not because of bad things.” It's just like, there's always a hundred things going on.
And it's so, so exciting that we get to do The Jonathan Larson Project finally, in New York City, and in the Village, in a theatre that Jonathan would have gone to. Like, the place that we're gonna - the Orpheum feels so correct for the spirit of Jonathan Larson. And there's just so much to dive into. Every day, as we kind of onboard new people to the show, I can't wait for that to be, like, audience members and cast members in rehearsal.
One of our marketing folks who's wonderful was, like, talking about her bat mitzvah, and I was like, “Yeah, I was popping out of a pile of RENT playbills in a Mimi costume on my bat mitzvah sign-in board!” Like, RENT bat mitzvah girls unite!
But like, our generation and multiple generations, people who were there as RENT revolutionized Broadway, people who sat on that RENT rush line, people who I've worked with on Tick, Tick…Boom!... Like, there's just so many layers of the Jonathan Larson legacy that I'm so excited for all those people to come into the fold and go, “Wait, he wrote that?”
Amy: That's so exciting! I'm getting chills just hearing you talk about it.
Hayley: Your passion also, I just want to name, is so inspiring, Jennifer. I want to know - so you've been talking about all these different things that you do. I'm curious about: What is the creative mission that kind of ties all these different things together?
Jennifer: Yeah, I think that a lot of it is about theatre history being alive. When we talk about, like, one of our favorite musicals is Merrily We Roll Along, or like, bringing these songs that Jonathan Larson wrote in 1983 to life… Like, theatre is the most ephemeral thing. I love cast recordings more than anyone, but like, that's a different thing than theatre. Like, theatre is in that moment. And at the same time, the history of it is always with you. That's sort of the thing that ties it together for me.
Amy: That's beautiful. I'd love to chat with you about womanhood, Jennifer - especially, oh my god, especially in light of this incredible book that you've given to the world. Can you talk a bit about how womanhood fits into your identity and into your theatrical work, both this book and all the things you do?
Jennifer: Definitely! I love that you guys talk to people about that. “You guys” is something I'm trying to avoid using in my language because it's gendered, and I just did it. (laughter)
You know, the book actually gave me new perspectives on this all the time. Because some of my own journey is like, there are things about my theatre career that I don't feel like were affected by me being a woman. But studying the history of women in the professional theatre has made me realize that they were, you know?
So that was really interesting. And I think a thing that people forget a lot is, like, we are on a continuum, right? People might think of women in the workforce one way now, but we are on a straight line back to the time when it was like, women weren't allowed to do this job, or women couldn't vote, or women couldn't have a credit card, or women couldn't have a seat at the table because it was inappropriate. And there were all these things that came up as I was writing my book.
One of the things that inspired Women Writing Musicals, wildly enough, was… The great Red Press, who was an iconic music contractor with decades and decades on Broadway, told me when I was interviewing him years ago that when he started trying to hire women for his orchestras on Broadway, men came up to him and were like, “How dare you hire a woman when a man is sitting at home trying to feed his family?”
Hayley: Oh my god, sorry. I had a visceral response to that. Whoa.
Jennifer: Right! I wanted to include some things that would elicit visceral responses like that in my book so that we could see. Like, some of the ways that women's physical appearances are talked about in reviews, some of the ways that hiring practices like that were articulated… We are on a straight line. It's not like there was one day in 1970-whatever, when everyone was like, “Okay, great, women are here now. And like, everything's equal.” I think that some of the, like, trying to make things seem great is actually to the detriment of trying to look and examine things.
So I just found myself thinking a lot about this as it related to opportunities I've had and opportunities I haven't had. And the way that people think about giving someone a job because they're the best person for it - how that is influenced by bias, by who you relate to because of your identity. All of those things, I think, I had a revelation about as I was writing the book and really studying the continuum. The main womanhood revelation was just, like, the connectedness of it, and we are on that timeline still, so there are things that have echoes. Even if it's, you know, someone who started working 40 years ago, things were one way when they started out, and so they still expect things to be that way. There's all these things that we can't even think about fixing or addressing if we don't actually really think about it and examine it in order to change it.
Hayley/Amy: Yeah!
Hayley: I mean, I think the thing that you said about us being on a straight line, and not acknowledging... When we do the positive thing, where we're like, look how much progress we're making! Which is true. Like, many things can be true at one time, right?
Jennifer: Totally. That's the good topic sentence, yeah.
Hayley: Yeah, we have made lots of progress, and it also still is very much a space where women are treated differently. Like, I'm a writer, I'm a musical theatre writer. One of my main teams is with three women, and one of the teams we have a man on the team. As the team of three women, we still get the, like, “Oh, that's so cute, three women working together.”
Jennifer: Of course you do.
Hayley: Right? And it’s like, “Cute?” Okay, all right. There are a million other words we could say. Or we could just say, like, “These are just people writing musicals.”
Jennifer: Of course, of course. It's hard because it actually - it was something that as I was writing the book, I didn't want all of the focus to be on the women's identity as women, for the exact reasons that you just articulated. And at the same time, it's a book about the history of women writing musicals. I was affected a lot by Jeanine Tesori and Lisa Kron. When they were giving interviews for Fun Home, they kept saying, like, “Ask us about the work. Like, we're so sick of being asked about being women…” In a positive way! But it made me think, like, at what point is it helpful to say, “This was the first woman to do this.” And at what point is it just helpful to go, “Let's talk about this musical this woman wrote.”
It was a judgment call, you know, like, I wrote this book and it's my opinion on when those things should be addressed and when it's like, “Let's focus on the work.” And honestly, it was difficult sometimes to go - how do I go, like, “Oh, this woman made history, but it's specifically because she overcame this and that.” And how much am I going, like, “She wrote this show that deserves to be seen on its own merits. ”
Amy: Yeah, that's a tough call. Can you tell us, Jennifer, what are some of the things that you learned in writing this book that surprised you the most?
Jennifer: You know, there are these women who accomplish so much and who are some of my favorite writers in history and who are these career musical theatre writers that are maybe the women in the book that people know. But some of the most fascinating things that I learned were about women who wrote one Broadway musical or had careers in other areas and made a foray into theatre.
There is a woman in the book who was an Olympic tennis champion.
Hayley/Amy: Cool/Wow!
Jennifer: There's a woman in the book who literally saved the Alamo. Like, she's the reason that - I know it's crazy.
Amy: Oh my gosh!
Hayley: Wow!
Jennifer: There's a woman in the book who was the most successful female Mexican writer, and she wrote a Broadway musical, and this was, like, many decades ago.
There are women of color who did things in theatre history that should be in history books so much more than they are, that I was so excited to have any part of putting their work down on paper. From Micki Grant, who was the first woman, period, to ever write book, music, and lyrics for a Broadway musical, to Pauline Elizabeth Hopkins, who was writing musicals - we don't think of them necessarily as modern musicals, but they were entertainments on stage with songs - in the late 1800s and early 1900s. And she was a Black woman. Her musical that involved slavery was the first time that the Black perspective on slavery was seen on stage.
Hayley/Amy: Wow…
Jennifer: It's like, where are all of these stories?
Hayley: Yeah, totally.
Jennifer: And some of it is that - I know! Like, unless - and I don't say this as a comparison, Lynn Ahrens is one of our greatest theatre lyricists of all time, Jeanine Tesori is, like, one of my favorite geniuses… But I do feel like there's the names that people know, like, those people who they should know… And then there's also this whole other corner of theatre history, where you're going, okay, just because this woman wrote one show doesn't mean that that story isn't, you know, instructive or interesting or part of the narrative.
There are also these women who wrote tons of Broadway musicals that aren't in the canon. And some of it has to do with the way that we revive shows, and the fact that - like, there's this woman in the book, Anne Caldwell, who wrote over 20 Broadway musicals and was prolific, and like, none of her shows are revived. And it has to do with, like, the time she was writing in and those topics, and, like, pre-Show Boat and even, you know, pre-Oklahoma!, how much is revived.
And the things that are revived tend to be the shows that we think of as the least dated in certain ways. And so the way that that intersects with, like, women or writers of color writing from their own perspective in other times, when those experiences in life were different. Like, the complicated nature of what gets revived comes into play. So one of my favorite things to discover was just the corners of - oh, this really interesting and valid - like, we all know we've seen musicals that have not run for very long but are still my favorite musical or your favorite musical. And it's like, that doesn't mean it's a bad show, and that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be in the history books.
Hayley: Right, it says a lot more about, like, where we are in the commercial space of theatre than the show itself a lot of the time.
Jennifer: Exactly, exactly. I've been talking a lot about - there's this musical called Mother Earth, that one of the writers was Toni Tennille, who I have a whole section on in the book, who's like, one half of the Captain and Tennille, she's an incredibly successful pop artist. And she wrote this musical about climate change and about saving the earth. And it was a short run on Broadway, and it was never recorded. It's one of those lost shows.
So much of writing my book came down to - like, if a musical happened and there was no cast recording, and especially if there was not even a non-commercial recording, did it exist? Like, people don't license it then, people aren't trying to remember it, all of that. She was also a very fascinating story to tell. So really what it came down to is - like, there's 300+ women. It was endless amounts of like, “Wait, what happened??”
Hayley: Yeah. Yeah, what I’m hearing is, like, there are all these people that have been lost, that we didn't know about, and so many more women of a variety of different backgrounds writing in a way that has just been lost.
Jennifer: Absolutely. And like, some of that is - some of it is not exclusive to women. Like, there are so many shows each season, and a lot of the history books are like, “Okay, so like, then we had this, and then we had this…” And it's like, you're naming one big hit out of the 20 shows that premiered that season. And so some of it is going like, “Oh, there's tons of writers we don't remember, there's tons of shows that…” It might be your favorite show, or my favorite show, or even a show that inspired something else. But you have to know about it. You shouldn't just study the hits, you should study all of it. Because sometimes, there are valuable corners of theatre history that you don't know about or realize.
Hayley: Yeah, absolutely.
Amy: For sure.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Jennifer, if you could wave a magic wand and make a change to the theatre industry, what would it be?
Jennifer: Great question! My answer always and forever is more theatre spaces, and specifically more theatre spaces that are unconventional. My dream of dreams is always, like, bring back the Mark Hellinger, which is now the Times Square Church, to being a theatre. And bring back the Edison, which is now the Hotel Ballroom, and that used to be a Broadway theatre. And let's have spaces where we could do all these immersive shows that are, you know, coming to life that deserve venues that can accommodate them.
Because at the end of the day, like, one of the crazy things about getting a theatre for The Jonathan Larson Project - and so much of the physical theatre studying I've done has been on Broadway - but realizing that like, we've lost so many off-Broadway spaces that could accommodate larger off-Broadway shows and that aren't, you know, run by nonprofits.
It's so hard to make shows a success financially these days, but at the same time, there are more shows than ever that want to have spaces. And so, how, in a really expensive real estate market, do we make that happen? And [how] do we make it so that when there's, you know, exciting and innovative new work, it doesn't have to fight and there's room for that?
So that's really usually my answer. But I will say that right now, with the inflated costs of it all… You know, theatre goes through eras and no one knows that better than me. And whenever I'm like, “Oh, this was way better 10 years ago,” I think about people telling Richard Rodgers, like, “Theatre is dead, kid. Go home.” (laughter) In every era, you have that.
Amy: Right. In every generation.
Hayley: I’m reading Kelly Bishop's book right now…
Jennifer: Oh my god, really?
Hayley: Yeah, and she's talking about, like, how in the ‘70s everyone was like, “Theatre is dead.” And it gave me that perspective of like - oh, is this just always the narrative, or is theatre actually dead? I don’t know.
Amy: Yes!
Jennifer: It's part of it. I read her book recently. There's a lyric in Rodgers and Hammerstein's Me and Juliet - which I always want to call & Juliet now, but Me and Juliet - where they're impersonating, like, an audience at an intermission of a musical. And they're like, “The theatre is dying, the theatre is dying.” Like, it's forever that. And it also, that doesn't make it less of a deeply felt sentiment, and it also just means, like, it's a perennial truth.
But I will say with the inflated costs right now… Which, like, theatre is not divorced from what's going on in the world in any way, financially or otherwise. It's also, like, women in the workforce is related to women writing musicals. Like, we're not divorced from everything happening in the United States in the workforce.
Hayley: No, it’s all intersected and connected, for sure.
Jennifer: Yeah, so much of my real magic wand wish is about the high costs right now that are contributing to high ticket prices that make it so hard for things to run. I mean, it just feels like a really tricky time. And so my magic wand would, I guess, be that there's some magical theatre subsidizing system that America could get behind. But I don't have high hopes for that at the moment so we'll just keep trying ourselves.
Amy: Government subsidies! Yeah, I will keep beating this drum as long as it goes. Yeah, and it might go for a really, really long time, because it does not seem to be heading in that direction of the government subsidizing theatre. But maybe one day.
Jennifer: It’s not.
Hayley: We'll keep innovating. You said something earlier about the way that Jeanine Tesori and Lisa Kron reacted about, like, always being asked about womanhood. This is another one of those questions that I feel like a variety of women have different responses to, because it's a question that we often don't ask men. But I'm curious to ask you anyway, which is: How do you balance your creative work with the rest of your life and, like, being a human being and the other priorities that you have going on?
Jennifer: It's a great question and a very valid question. And honestly, like, it's definitely not a bad question to ask any woman. But it's also one of those things where I was like, oh, but like, men could technically be asked that too, or anyone of any gender identity.
Hayley: Yeah, it’s just interesting.
Jennifer: You know, it's one of those things. Yeah. I think it's always good that we're all thinking more about the questions we ask, too.
Personally, I have given this more thought recently, and it also has to do with, like, the aging of it all. You know, I think that as someone who collaborates still with so many people she collaborated with 10 years ago, 15 years ago even - the way that everyone's priorities shift as people make time in their lives for family in different ways. It's definitely been in my mind.
And like, I have had times where I've gone like, Oh, this is harder as a woman because women are expected to do these things at these times in life. And like, it's not lining up with a professional timeline. A lot of the women who I wrote about, I did find that - even though I didn't go into the details of, like, how women navigate family life, I did think about it.
I thought about, like - as a writer who's trying to pursue all these really difficult opportunities, if you want to have kids, or if you want to get married, or if you have to have this level of personal relationship priorities going on… The impossible life of a musical theatre writer doesn't always align with that. So it was something that I thought about a lot as I was writing my book.
I feel like in the past couple years, personally, I've done a much better job balancing things. And I will say that one of the things - as the past few weeks have gotten so crazy - that I've realized is, like, it is all temporary. And these times when you're like, “Oh, I'm really balancing my personal life and my professional life well, and I feel good about it.” And then there's times when it doesn't feel like that. And it's also like, what a privilege for the reason to be because of your dream project happening. And you know what? It's not gonna be like that in five months, and then I'll feel, like, personally more balanced.
So I think for me, some of it is going, “Which things are you able to not have on your plate right now?” And also, like, it's okay if it is all really crazy for a while. It's not forever, and it's worth it.
Amy: The idea that balance is a verb and not a noun, and that it changes over time.
Jennifer: Doing our best over here right now. (laughter)
Amy: But that's so helpful, too. I mean, I know Hayley and I - I'll speak for myself, but I've been feeling very unbalanced, especially in this busy, busy time of year. And it's helpful for me to hear you say that, that it's all temporary, because you're right, it is.
Jennifer: It is. And like, there'll be some day next year, probably, or who knows, where I'm like, “Oh, today I'm just gonna read a book, and like, maybe I'll call this friend.” And I'm gonna be like, “Man, that energy when, like, all these dreams were happening at once and things were crazy, like, I miss it.” And it's like, it can't be “the grass is always greener.” It really has to be like - I try so hard these days to be like, I am appreciating the craziness because it's all related to things that I dreamed of. And when things are more calm, I have to appreciate that it's like, oh, here's a chill day that I'm getting, and there's not exciting stuff going on so that I can rest and recharge. Just having that presence, which I know we all try to do, but like, it's really the key to it is, like, this is the moment we're in right now and it's temporary.
Hayley: Yeah, totally. Being conscious about that is really important. I'm gonna set this expectation for myself and keep reminding myself over and over and over again, and maybe one day…I’ll get better at it.
Jennifer: Totally. It's also like, I guess it has to be said, therapy is a big - like, therapy's amazing.
Hayley: Oh, yeah.
Amy: Go to therapy, listeners! If you can.
Hayley: Yeah. We have said many times on this podcast: If you have access to therapy, go! We'll say it again.
Amy: Use it, yeah.
Jennifer: My therapist is incredible, and I wrote her the most emotional dedication. I sent her a copy of my book last week, and I was just like, “You're an inspiring woman to me,” and like, “I love you so much,” and I was just… Like, I love my therapist.
Hayley: Awww. That's great. We could literally talk to you for hours and hours.
Amy: Forever!
Jennifer: I could talk to you forever!
Hayley: It's so good. But we want to be respectful of your time. So the last question for you today is: What are you most proud of in your life and in your work so far?
Jennifer: One of the things, I think, that - like, honestly, my gut instinct is, like, working collaboratively and continually with a tribe of humans, you know? Like, one of the things that I treasure most about the things that I love to do in this business are working with the same people over periods of time.
And I've been thinking about that a lot this past week, because there are people I've worked on The Jonathan Larson Project with for 10 years who, like, I'm going to be working on it with off-Broadway. And there's people that I just did the 14th annual Joe Iconis Christmas Extravaganza with who, like, I've done 14 years of Christmas shows with.
Just having this kind of family of artists, where you're always bringing in new people and you're always excited to have new people and then you form new bonds. But where the meat of it is, like, these people that still care about these same kinds of shows and things and come together. Like, that's just something I'm so, so proud of. And my closest collaborator, Joe Iconis, is really the reason for that. And I think about this all the time because, like, I'm so lucky to have worked on so many of his shows where, like - On one show, this person is a musician. On the next show, they're a performer. On the next show, they're… It's like, it feels like we kind of got to create our own Steppenwolf or something, where people get to artistically collaborate in different ways. And I'm always just so grateful to be part of that community of artists.
Hayley: That's really special. Thank you for sharing. Well, Jennifer, this has been an absolute delight. Thank you for being here with us. Could you please share with our listeners where they can find you on the internet?
Jennifer: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. And also, like, this is amazing what you all are doing. I really appreciate it more than ever because of my book. It's made me have a new perspective on just how awesome it is, what you've created. So thank you for having me.
You can find me on the internet @jenashtep. You can also often find me at 54 Below if you go to 54Below.org. Honestly, you can find me literally at the Orpheum starting February 14th. Come see The Jonathan Larson Project. And yeah, there's a lot of exciting stuff. So @jenashtep, I'll keep you updated.
Hayley: Thank you. Please do.
Amy: Amazing! Thank you so much.
(Musical transition)
Amy: What a delightful person, and just work that is so very aligned with what we do here at Women & Theatre.
Hayley: Yeah! Honestly, I said it in the interview, but her passion was so inspiring. I loved hearing about the history that she has been uncovering through her process of writing Women Writing Musicals. Knowing that history is always sort of rhyming with itself, I think that perspective is really, really potent at this moment in time.
Amy: Yeah, I agree. Yeah. I love the little niche that Jennifer has carved out for herself in this industry. It's so cool, the things that she's working on and the perspective that she takes on all of it. Her observations about the trends that she sees over history and about the ebbs and flows and about - like, the thing that everything is temporary. Like, that's a thing that I say all the time to myself, but it's a thing that I need to keep saying to myself because it's true. And like, the joy that comes with that and the pain that comes with that, like, it's all connected. And it's so related to theatre and to womanhood and to everything we do here. So I'm taking that to heart today.
Hayley: Yeah, I think also just her takeaway of, like, having a community and a family of artists that she continues to work with. And the idea that that doesn't mean we don't include new people - we continue to include new people, but it's just like, the core of the community remains. I love that.
Amy: Cool.
Hayley: So, this was a great conversation.
Amy: It was!
Hayley: I can't wait to read the book. Before we run, let's talk Trailblazers of the Week.
Amy: In the Trailblazer of the Week segment, we take a moment to uplift the people who inspire us. It can be someone in our immediate circles or someone we admire from afar.
So my Trailblazer of the Week this week is the amazing Michael Radi, who is a darling theatre friend and collaborator. Michael is doing incredible work with the Musical Theatre Writing Collective, which is a community of writers that they created from scratch that is honestly the most kind and generous and helpful group of humans that I've had the pleasure of sharing creative space with. Michael is a go-getter, works harder than any person that I have ever encountered in the world and does so many things. And yeah, I love all of the things that they're doing. They have a vision for how to create community in theatre that is very aligned with my personal values and with the values that we have here at Women & Theatre. So, shout out to Michael! Keep doing what you’re doing!
Hayley: Go Michael! Yay.
Amy: Woot woot!
Hayley: My Trailblazer of the Week is Kelly Bishop. I mentioned in the interview that I'm reading her book right now. If you didn't know, I'm a big Gilmore Girls fan. So I've admired Kelly's work as an actor from afar. And I also learned while watching Gilmore Girls, that she was also in the original cast of A Chorus Line, which is my grandmother's - who passed away a couple years ago - my grandmother's favorite musical. So A Chorus Line has always held a special place in my heart, because it's a show that I shared with her and got to see with her when I was a kid. And, you know, it just, it's really special to me.
I've always admired her artistic work, but I didn't know much about her life as a dancer and as an actor. And she's yet another one of these women who just didn't take no for an answer, had the perspective very much of, like, “You don't ask, you don't get.” Which is a good Zina Goldrich nugget of wisdom, another woman I admire… But Kelly is, like, a living, breathing example of that, and just being ready when opportunity struck, and always looking for those doors and where to open them. So that's been really beautiful, to learn that this woman that I've always on some level felt connected to, like, I just really identify with her and her chutzpah and her way of kind of working through this business. So yeah.
Amy: Amazing. I love that. Well, Hayley, I want to hype you up today. I want to hype you up today for your ability to cut to the heart of an issue and to name what you're hearing and reflect things back to people. It's a thing that - I think maybe I've hyped you up for it before, but I'm going to hype you up for it again. I've seen you doing it a lot recently, and it's something I really admire about you. I know it comes in part from your director hat and in part from the core of your being, and I admire that about you.
Hayley: Thank you.
Amy: It's always… I love to see how you naming things for people helps them. It's really cool.
Hayley: Thank you. I appreciate that. I want to hype you up because I see that you've been managing many, many, many hats and many, many, many things and working to balance all of those things. And I know that it's been hard because of what you've shared with me. But I see that you're doing the work and that you are trying your best and that you are figuring it out, and that is so admirable. When you get knocked down, Amy, you just always stand back up, and you go, “Okay, where's the solution? How are we going to continue to muddle through and move forward?” And I really admire and respect that about you. Yeah, that’s it.
Amy: Thank you. That's wonderful. We are all busy women doing lots of cool things. And good for us!
Hayley: Busy girlies. And speaking of being busy, listeners, I'm about to have a snack. Go eat something.
Amy: Go eat something!
Hayley: Fuel yourself. And not in the Dallas Cowboys cheerleader “Fuel yourself” way. Like, go eat something that brings you joy.
Amy: I didn’t even know that was a thing.
Hayley: Yeah, if you've watched the Netflix show, that's… I digress. Have a snack. Have a sweet treat. Treat yourself. You deserve it. Love you!
Amy: Absolutely. Thanks for joining us! We'll see you next time on video!
Hayley/Amy: Bye!
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Join us for our virtual season launch party on February 27 from 7pm–8pm. Come on out and share space with other members of the Women & Theatre community and hear about what we have coming up for Season 5! To RSVP, visit the Community Events page on our website or check out the link in the show notes.
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews! If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show was written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
