S5E2: Maria Wirries
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk with actor and writer Maria Wirries about creating equitable spaces, telling diverse stories rooted in truth, embracing the fluidity of identity, building diversity at the highest decision-making levels of the theatre industry, and more. We also highlight Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz as part of our Women’s History Month Playwrights You Should Know series, in partnership with Expand the Canon. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Guest: Maria Wirries
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Old Friends - opens on Broadway March 25!
BMI Lehman Engel Musical Theatre Workshop
Stephen Sondheim: A Life by Meryle Secrest
Women’s History Month:
Expand the Canon - Los Empeños de Una Casa (House of Desires) by Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz
Trailblazers of the Week:
Announcements:
Join us for virtual co-working on Tuesday, March 11 at 11am ET on Zoom!
Guest Bio:
Maria Wirries (she/they) is a Performer, Composer, Lyricist, and self-proclaimed Swamp Witch. Select credits include: Old Friends (Broadway), Dear Evan Hansen (Broadway and First National Tour), Kinky Boots (Off-Broadway Revival), and Penelope or How the Odyssey Was Really Written (Off-Broadway). She is currently in the BMI Lehman Engel Musical Theatre Workshop and has developed her own original musicals at the Goodspeed Opera House, the Paramount Theater, and Penn State University.
Find Maria Online:
Check out Maria’s work on YouTube and Spotify
Thanks for listening!
Who do you want to hear from next on the Women & Theatre Podcast? Nominate someone here.
The Women & Theatre Podcast is created and produced by Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews. Please like, comment, subscribe, follow us on Instagram, Facebook, and YouTube, and consider making a donation to support our work. Thank you for listening!
Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello beautiful people, and welcome back to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cozy beverage and join us as we talk to women and gender-expansive folks about their experiences at the intersection of womanhood and theatre.
Hayley: On the pod, we cultivate open conversations across identities and professional roles…
Amy: We look for opportunities to support one another in growing our careers…
Hayley: And we pool our collective wisdom to build the equitable theatrical spaces of the future.
(Music)
Hayley: Amy, I'm so excited to see you. How are you?
Amy: I'm so excited to see you. I am doing really well today. How are you?
Hayley: Good. It's snowing outside in Canada, and that's a beautiful thing.
Amy: It's magical. Snow is so magical, isn't it?
Hayley: It is, yeah, totally. Let's get into it, Amy. Let's get started with our Roses and Thorns. Do you want to take it to get us started?
Amy: Sure! Yeah, I'll take it. Yeah, so my Rose for this week is letting go of things that are no longer serving me. I'm really - there are some things that I am - like, commitments that I'm removing from my life right now that I'm feeling so good about. It's just like a weight lifting off of my shoulders, and I'm so excited to clear that space for what's coming next, which is just - it's exciting transitions, new beginnings, all good.
My Thorn right now is… It's the gray skies. It's - like, as much as snow is magical and I do love it, the winter doldrums do get me down sometimes. And I do what I can to take care of myself within that. And also, some days there are gray skies and it's hard to get out of bed, and that's true too. So that's me. How are you doing today, Hayley? What are your Rose and Thorn?
Hayley: My Rose is that I feel like I'm really embracing - I think I said on a podcast recently, this idea of “Rest is productive.” So I feel like I'm embracing that and leaning in. I just finished a book that I was really excited about reading. I am leaning into playing a video game that is really fun for me. I never play video games unless I'm on holiday, so it like, really signifies the holidays for me. So yeah, I'm just embracing the need for rest that I really do have, which is a rose. And getting to spend time with family and friends who I don't get to see all the time. So that's my Rose.
My Thorn is the state of the world.
Amy: Oh, yeah.
Hayley: To be honest, like, it's just really scary right now. Things are really uncertain. And part of me feels really excited to, like, get to work and be a part of making things better. And part of me is totally paralyzed in fear and uncertainty and daunted by the size of this unknown beast that's to come.
Amy: I think that dichotomy is true for a lot of us right now, and I want to say to listeners: If you're feeling the same way, like, just blanket permission. It's okay to be where you are. Like, it's okay to be in a space where you are working really hard to fight for equity, to fight for people's rights. And it's also okay to feel burnt out or to need a break or to feel like it's all too much and you just need to step back for a second. Like, it's all part of the work. Like Hayley said, rest is productive and yeah, it's all part of the work.
Hayley: Yeah, thank you for that. So, that's where I'm at. I'm trying to hold these two things at one time. But I'm really excited to be here today.
Amy: Yeah, we're going to talk with Maria!
Hayley: Maria and I had the pleasure of working together on Spiral Bound at Joe's Pub — which is a beautiful song cycle by Miranda Ferris Jones — just about a year ago now, directed by the brilliant Emily Maltby, with wonderful people like Laura Benanti and Eva Noblezada and Lorna Courtney and all these amazing, brilliant women and non-binary folks. And I just think Maria is such a brilliant talent. I think that they're really one of the big up-and-comers to watch. And I'm so excited for them being in Old Friends coming up. Amy and I also — I don't know if you want to talk about this, Amy — but we just got to see Maria star in Medusa at NAMT this year, so that was also really cool.
Amy: We did, yeah. And it was — oh, it was such a performance! At the end of the show, Hayley and I just were — like, we were blown away. The piece was really beautiful and interesting, and Maria just crushed it. What a compelling performance that spoke so much to womanhood and the complexities within that. I'm really pleased that we're gonna be speaking with her today. I'm really excited to learn more about Maria and their journey and all the cool stuff that they're up to. So, shall we get started?
Hayley: Let's get into it.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: For Women’s History Month, we’ve teamed up with Expand the Canon to bring you a series of Playwrights You Should Know About.
Amy: This week’s Playwright You Should Know About is Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz. Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz was born in Mexico to a Spanish father and Mexican mother. She later sequestered herself in a convent, the only way for a woman to pursue her thirst for knowledge and gain instruction in the arts. During that time, she used her works to comment on the socio-politico-economic landscape of Mexico in the 17th century and condemn the sexism of the church.
If you wish Twelfth Night’s love triangle was a love octagon, check out her play, Los Empeños de Una Casa (House of Desires), written in 1683. Learn more about the play and Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz on This is a Classic, a podcast by Expand the Canon.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Today we're talking to Maria Wirries. Maria is a performer, composer, lyricist, and self-proclaimed swamp witch. Select credits include Old Friends (Broadway), Dear Evan Hansen (Broadway and First National Tour), Kinky Boots (Off-Broadway Revival), and Penelope or How the Odyssey Was Really Written (Off Broadway). She is currently in the BMI Lehman Engel Musical Theatre Workshop and has developed her own original musicals at the Goodspeed Opera House, the Paramount Theatre, and Penn State University.
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people! Maria, welcome to Women & Theatre.
Maria: Thank you for having me!
Hayley: Of course. Before we get started, can you share your pronouns and tell us a little bit about what you do in theatre?
Maria: Absolutely. So I'm Maria, my pronouns are she/they. And I'm an actor and composer/lyricist in theatre. I have mostly been an actor for the majority of my career, but more recently have been pivoting in different ways and wanting to get on the other side of the table. So that's been my journey recently.
Hayley: So exciting! So in your bio, Maria, you say that you're a self-proclaimed swamp witch. So before we dive further, Amy and I are so obsessed with this. We have to know. Just tell us what it is to be a swamp witch.
Maria: So I grew up in like, the swampy backwoods of Florida. And I was always just surrounded by really badass women in my family who were very aware of nature and the plants around us and would take me on these walks and teach me about the plants and, you know, their medicinal properties and all these different things. And they would not describe themselves as witches, but I always thought that they had a very witchy vibe. And so as I got older, I wanted to do my own research and learn about it.
So during the pandemic, I had time, and I read a lot and sort of like collected myself an altar space. And I use it for manifestation and thinking about the things that I want, taking time for myself. My practice has really been kind of owning my own space and creating my own destiny, as opposed to constantly feeling like I'm relying on hoping and wishing and seeing what happens. And I feel like it's led me to just be more intentional in general in life and just take more time for myself.
So it's all kind of set in a swampy vibe, just because that's what I grew up with and around. Like, I have turtle feet and bones and things on my altar, and it's all very, like, “from Florida”. Yeah, I think that sums it up.
Amy: Swamp witch, yes! Maria, can you tell us something, anything, that is inspiring you right now in your life?
Maria: The people in my life have been inspiring me so much. I think it all goes along with this idea of intentionality, that over the last few years I've been really specific about the people and the relationships that I've been cultivating. And because of that, the people that surround me are just, like, the most exciting people to me. They are doing their own projects in varying fields, and their passion for what they do ignites me. I have a conversation with someone, and they're like, “Yeah, I'm working on this thing and it's got me really excited.” And I'm like, I want to be working on a thing that has me excited! So I would say it's mainly humans that are inspiring me right now.
Hayley: That's so beautiful, Maria. I love that. So before we get into the depths of the swamp in this interview, we would like to do a fun little flash round of questions with you. This might be related to the swamp, it might not be, but if you were an animal, what would you be?
Maria: I would be… I feel like, some sort of jungle cat.
Hayley: Ooh.
Maria: Powerful, but like, quiet. I'm not quiet! I feel like there's kind of like, I don't know, there's like a silent grounded power. That's what I would want to be.
Amy: Love it. What is your weirdest hobby?
Maria: Hobby. God. Um, I can talk about an old hobby that I used to have that I don't really keep up anymore, but I used to be in a Scottish pipe and drum band. I was a tenor drummer. So I played these drums where you had them, like, strung through your fingers, like, these laces and you would spin them and then keep time while you were going. And I thought it was the most fun thing. I'd wear a full kilt outfit and do these concerts. It was a blast. So if there's a pipe band looking for a tenor drummer, I can pick it up again.
Amy: Love that!
Hayley: You know where to find Maria, okay? Do you have a quote or a mantra that's speaking to you right now?
Maria: My friends and I make these yearly collages of like, kind of projecting what we want to do for the year and what we want to come to us. And this year, the one that I have in the center is “I can, I will.” And that, I've decided, is something that I'm really going to think about this year. Two years ag - and I kept it two years in a row because it was really feeding me - was “Ready, willing, and able, but what do you bring to the table?” And so that was the one that I was really rocking with for a while, but right now, it's “I can, I will.”
Amy: Maria, what's your favorite musical?
Maria: My favorite musical is Hair. That's an easy one for me. I did it when I was in college, and - I was so buttoned up as a young person. I was so focused, I was like, “I have to do everything right.” And then this musical came along. And I was actually considering leaving musical theatre. I had been in the program for two years, and I wish I could say it was for a better reason, but it was absolutely for a boy at the time. And I was convincing myself that it wasn't. I was in some delulu world where I was gonna like, leave my musical theatre program that I'd worked so hard to get into and like, go move to Texas with this man. Terrible idea. Glad I didn't do it.
But the head of my program at the time was like, “Hey, we have this musical coming up. I really think you should audition. Like, stick it out, see what you think.” And it actually happened to be one of my mom's favorite musicals. Like, she showed me this movie for years and I loved the music. And I was like, “Okay, I'll stick in it.”
And I actually literally got a back tattoo, and I don't know if you can see it, but it's “Our eyes are open,” and it's a line from the show. I love it so much. It completely changed my life and refocused me to be able to see that, like, my activism and the things that I cared about could be inside of musical theatre. And so yeah, so I stuck with it.
Hayley: So glad that you did! Maria, what's your song of the moment?
Maria: So I totally missed the Call Me By Your Name train. I don't know how I never saw this movie. Everybody would always be like, “Maria, I can't believe you of all people haven't seen that movie.” And I was like, what does that mean?? But anyway, there's a song, a Sufjan Stevens song, “Mystery of Love,” and I cannot stop listening to it.
Hayley: Fabulous. Well, thanks for playing along with our flash round. Now we can get into the real stuff. How did you come to theatre in the first place and your creative work, Maria?
Maria: Oh, man. I always knew that I wanted to be a singer. Like, from really, really young, probably three or four. It was the first time I'd ever felt like people really listened to me. I was the super, super youngest in the family. There was a lot going on, not a lot of time to fixate and focus. And a teacher had asked us to bring in a special skill or something into class. And I brought this little karaoke machine and sang, “I've been working on the railroad.” And everybody in class was like, “Oh my gosh, Maria sings.” “Oh, Maria is not just that weird girl who talks to bugs on the playground.” And I was like, that's right. Look out, world!
And I felt that for a time, I was like, “Oh my gosh, this is my way to relate to people,” because I just really did not as a kid. I feel like I related to adults more, but people my own age, I was kind of like - again, that weird girl who’s talking to bugs. And so, it excited me, and I started to just sing anywhere I could. I was doing, like, shows at the county fair and at prize fights and rodeos and like, literally anywhere there's a spot to sing, I was working my way in there.
Hayley: Like, where can I get on the stage? That's where I'm supposed to go. Yeah.
Maria: Yes! And I had such hyper confidence as a kid, like, I would just walk up to people and be like, “I have like an hour-long set ready, if you need me.”
Hayley: Honestly, love that audacity from you.
Amy: Oh my gosh, yes!
Maria: I'm trying to get her back. Trying to find her a little bit more these days. So I started working as just, like, a performer. I would make like a hundred bucks doing these random things. And then I got involved in theatre because there was this summer camp. I was at a community theatre, and it was technically, I think, kids 12 through 18. And I was 11, but I was going to turn 12 that summer. And I begged and begged, and we asked them, and they were like, “Okay, we'll let you in as an 11-year-old.” And our show was High School Musical 2, and I was like, “This is the best thing that's ever happened.” It's a group of people. It's a community.
Because I was, like, an individual performer. I was not building community in any particular way, I was just focused on my own thing. So I would go back each year and get the opportunity to do these shows, but it was really, I was looking forward to seeing the people. So I didn't initially consider pursuing theatre, but when I was going to college, people were like, “Getting a theatre degree allows you to have dance, singing, and acting. So I was like, “Okay, I'll go to school for musical theatre, but I'll be able to keep singing and doing whatever.” And then, you know, you get bit by the bug, and I've just been in it. It just happened to me and I'm accepting it.
Amy: Fantastic! So Maria, tell us about what you're working on creatively at the moment.
Maria: Yeah, absolutely. So, I'm in the BMI writers class. I'm in my second year right now. I've been writing musicals for about four years now. So I have a couple of musicals that are in development that I've submitted to some things this year. And so I'm just kind of keeping my fingers crossed and hoping for the best, but in general…
Hayley: Yeah, in that submission life. Yes.
Maria: It's that time of year. I'm so unorganized when it comes to that type of thing. So I'm amazed that I've gotten any of it done. And I've been congratulating myself all the way along.
Hayley: As you should! Celebrate those wins!
Amy: Yeah, every submission that you hit submit on is such a win. Absolutely.
Maria: Yes. So I've been in that process over the last couple of months. That's been exciting. It's been nice to revisit a couple of the shows that I haven't been focused on as much with my writing partner, Christian Thompson, who's also an actor and Penn State alum.
And then I'm preparing for this show that we're starting rehearsals for next month. It's called Old Friends, and it's a Sondheim revue that started as a concert, and then they did a run on the West End. And now they're bringing it here to Broadway and also a little run in LA, and I could not be more thrilled. I'm just, like, listening to nothing but Sondheim and getting back into that musical world and reading books about him and listening to interviews, and it's been nice. I love to, like, nerd out about things, so this has been a good one.
Hayley: If you haven't read the Meryle Secrest biography about Sondheim, I would highly recommend that one.
Maria: I haven’t! I’m writing it down.
Hayley: It's a good one. Yeah, just as a side note for any Sondheim nerds out there.
Yeah, so Maria, like you mentioned, you're a multi-hyphenate, you do so many different things. Do you have a creative mission that kind of encompasses all of the different things that you do?
Maria: What I keep finding drives me is creating rooms and stories and spaces that can encapsulate what I feel like is truth, like, real stories of diverse people. A lot of times when I was auditioning for theatre or being surrounded by theatre growing up, I felt really uncomfortable because I never felt like I really existed in those spaces. I was seeing stories that were kind of like broad brushstrokes of different intersectional pieces of my identity. But none of them really felt like me or how I would go around in the world, or even many of the people that I know who are those groups of people would act and be. And so it was this constant battle to find myself in these pieces or to find myself in these audition rooms.
And so I've been excited by new writers and people that I've gotten to work with who are trying to also create these spaces. But I just, I kept finding myself being like, “I want more.” And so that's really what pushed me to become a writer. Because as an actor, I felt - there's just not enough time and space a lot of times as an actor to make those changes in a room. The decisions have already been made. There's, like, a million dollars on the line, and nobody has time to listen to the actor who's like, “Hey, maybe we could, like, change this song…” They're like, we're too far down the pike. Which I get! When you're in that type of a process, it feels like you're tumbling down a hill.
So I just always felt powerless in those spaces, and being able to be a writer, it's empowered me as also an actor to speak more in spaces, and to feel like I know what it's like to navigate those rooms. I think when I first started doing it, like when I was first on the other side of the table, I was ill. Literally sitting there like, “I should not be deciding these things. What in the world?” I felt the weight, it was so intense.
And then I also started to realize how hard it is to make those judgment calls. Like, it was really easy on the other side to be like, “Well, why don't you just do this and why don't you just do that?” And then it was like, “Okay, how do I do that? How am I going to make things better when it's so hard to do?” It's easy when you're not in the hot seat to have those ideas, but it's like, oh, my gosh, all of these things I thought I knew or I thought I wanted to bring into this space, I don't know, inside of the structure of this system, kind of how to do that. And so it's nice when you're a part of something where people from production, from the creative team, everybody is kind of on the same page and creating their own structure.
But anyway, to answer your question, my mission has been to try to create equitable spaces and to feel like the stories that I'm telling are actually real.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Amazing! So let's talk about womanhood. Maria, I’d love to hear about how womanhood fits into your identity and how it has impacted your theatrical work, if at all.
Maria: That's such a great question. So growing up, I didn't really have an attachment to gender, specifically. And bless my mom, who is 89 right now. She got me when she was 62, is like, a white Southern woman who could very easily have, you know, shoved pink down my throat or whatever. Just kind of like let me do whatever I wanted, and what I wanted as a kid was to play with dinosaurs and have light-up sneakers from the boys section, and I never really felt attached to it.
As I got older, that never changed, but then I would have conversations with people and they'd be like, “Oh, I feel so aligned with everything in this box,” and I'd be like, “Oh, do most people feel that way?” And it felt kind of startling, the same way as I discovered being bisexual, I was like, “Oh my god, not everybody just like, likes everyone?” I feel like in some ways, I was sort of sheltered from a lot of the insistence upon behaving one way or another. In other ways I definitely was, because you can't avoid it 100%. The minute you step out your door, you're going to be, you know, treated in different ways.
But I think my attachment to womanhood is kind of - I guess the similarities in what we go through as a gender expression, the things that happen to us that bond us in some way. And I think that in a lot of ways, identity is like that. It's like, do the shared experiences create identity in some sort of a way? And I mean, I feel like I move and flow. It's incredibly fluid. And so sometimes I'm feeling super femme and I'm like, I want to put on the fluffiest dress and walk around and be a total princess and live that truth. And then other times, I'm like, I want to be in Woman King, and I want to like, have a spear and take people out. You know, I feel like it encapsulates so much, it's almost hard to talk about when you really think about it.
Hayley: Yeah, it's a really big, tricky thing to define.
Maria: It is!
Hayley: Yeah, which is why we like to just kind of get into it. From all of the different intersecting identities that you're coming from, how do those things affect your relationship to womanhood? And yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah.
Maria: Yeah, it really is. And I think because I didn't grow up, necessarily, in the Black community, and I think that there is a dynamic of womanhood within the Black community that I feel from my friends, and… like, the idea of being mixed, I think I'm mixed in all the ways one can be, I feel. I say that all the time. Like, I'm mixed ethnicity, I am mixed orientation, I am mixed gender… I feel like I sort of like flow ambiguously all the time, which is very freeing and sometimes also isolating in certain ways.
I guess in relation to theatre, growing up as a woman in theatre. It was very, like, you're in your character's shoes, knee-length dress, like, you know…
Amy: Rehearsal skirt, yeah.
Maria: It was really specific. It was so, like, you know, we're highlighting our boobs so that they look bigger. I don't know, it was just such a specific time.
And it's been interesting - even within what is not the longest lifetime, mine being 27 years - that there's been so much change from what I remember doing when I was first starting in theatre to where we are now. It feels like an acceleration in an exciting way. And also, obviously, we have so far to go. But I related to theatre as how I was being treated by other people as a woman. So it was sort of like, you know, you're gonna expect that people are going to be like, touchy, or you're gonna have that like, old man producer who lingers too long and says inappropriate things. And there was an expectation of that, and also like, sort of your place in how you could speak about things and how people are gonna interact with you.
So I feel like It wasn't necessarily a positive to me, relating womanhood to theatre. And I always felt like I got around that by being one of the guys. Like, I've always been very bro-y and love to sort of hang with that side of things. And so - yeah, I think that is an interesting question, how it relates to theatre being sort of, like, stuck in these gender roles that did exist for so long.
Hayley: Well, and especially in musical theatre, it's so binary in so many ways. And of course it's, like, changing now and I think in the work that you're doing and so many other young, up-and-coming writers, I know there's more flexibility there. But it was so much like, “Okay, men over here, women over here, and you're going to wear the skirts and they're going to wear…” Just what we were already talking about. It's just, I feel like so many of us who grew up in that theatre space, it's like, so oddly gendered, and especially in musicals, oddly gendered.
Amy: Yeah, and the canon lags behind too. Like, it takes so long to write and develop a show that the shows that are coming out now probably started being written ten, fifteen years ago, and the world was really different ten or fifteen years ago.
Maria: Yeah, yeah, it really was. It's actually insane how different. And I think what's frustrating and, of course, scary about right now is just feeling that sort of teetering on the edge of what progress we've made. And that there are people that are so threatened by that progress that they're desperately trying to throw it so far back in response. I think that that's what's so terrifying to me, that it's like, I feel like we did make such progress, and then all of a sudden we're not. We sort of halted, and we're waiting to see what's coming next.
Hayley: Totally. Actually, I was just gonna say, Maria, before you got on the podcast, we did our little pre-interview segment, and one of the things I was talking about was just how terrified I am staring down the barrel of 2025. And like, yeah, just how that affects theatre too is something I've been thinking about. Like, you know, the same people that are pushing for “free speech” are looking to censor us so deeply, and what that means for our community. It's terrifying,
Maria: It is. I think something that worries me, I think, the most in theatre is just… Because we're not subsidized, a lot of the people who we are navigating finance with are people who are not on our team a lot of the time. Or who think they are, but can't possibly really be because they don't even live in the same reality as us.
Amy: In the same world! Right, exactly.
Hayley: Right, like, someone who's fighting to pay rent and put food on the table is not in the same position.
Maria: Yeah. And I feel like we're so close to each other in a way that maybe other people in different jobs aren't. We're dealing with people who can finance a Broadway show, and so that's a really specific grouping of people. And then we're, like, oddly, blue collar workers in so many ways. Like, with the amount of money that we make. And so, it just feels like the wealth disparity there is so intense.
And so then when you're trying to create art with people, and you're trying to tell stories that feel authentic, and you're dealing with people who don't even know anybody who you are trying to represent in these shows… It does feel like, how do you pitch these things to people who are afraid to rock the boat and lose investment? And, you know, it becomes about the money and all of those types of things at a commercial level. And that's what always disappoints me.
A lot of the times when I enter into commercial spaces, I find myself feeling… With all of this resource, what we could do and what we're not doing, and it feels so obvious in those spaces. And then when I step into other spaces where I do feel more, like, artistically driven and like, “Wow, we're really saying something!” and just like, where that resource lacks and holds things back and makes things take longer.
So I think that scares me when, in my mind, we share a city with people who are seemingly on the same page, but that's because those are the people that I have access to and spend time with. And the fact that the people who make some of the bigger decisions in our careers and in our artistic footprint, unfortunately, might not be. So it's scary.
Hayley: Absolutely. Well, you said this beautiful thing about, like, the “what could be,” and so I want to dig a little bit into the “what could be” of this whole conversation. So if you could make one change to the theatre industry, like, wave your swamp witch magic wand and make the change right now, like, what would it be?
Maria: If it could only be one thing, to make the most impact that I could think of would just be to be able to somehow elevate the most diverse group of people to the highest positions. It's slowly happening. I went to the Black Theatre United Gala again this year, and what just truly excited me to the point of tears, I was just sitting there sobbing, was seeing these people who have been icons of mine for a very long time finally get to a place where they feel like they can enact change in more serious ways by being producers of shows. It really is always a trickle-down effect every single time.
I've been in companies where I'm like, “Oh my gosh, the company manager is a person of color, and they're queer, and this is going to be awesome.” And then I get into conversations with them where they're like, “I can't do anything. Because it's not me who's making the final call. There's so many things I want to change, but I've been placed here because It's advantageous for a company to have someone who looks like me and who identifies like me in this spot. But the reality of it is, like, I can plan you a pizza party.” You know, it's stuff like that that makes you go, like, what? We're not high enough yet to make the decisions that we really want to make and to make the calls.
It's just such a disservice because every time we have a show that really pushes ground, like, really says something, it is successful. It is! And I don't know why it's so hard and so scary to believe when the statistics are there, you know, that these shows are successful because that is what people want to see.
Hayley: I mean, I think the scarcity mindset runs so deep, and I think that kind of - yeah, the fear of change, like you're saying, is… it's totally misplaced. Because every time we make something that's new, people want it. Like, the demand is there for that.
Maria: So I would, it would definitely be lifting those people, lifting us to a place where the decisions can be in our hands, as opposed to in the hands of people who are honestly not even artists themselves a lot of the time. You know, I think that often frustrates me when I'm like, “Have you ever tried to write a song?” It's really easy for you to say, “Cut it and find something else because I don't like it,” and you're like, “Oh, okay, how about you go away and write something?”
Hayley: Yeah, you go try!
Amy: Right.
Maria: Figure it out, you know?
Hayley: Yeah, those conversations are maddening. I won't get too specific about this, but I did have a meeting with someone recently where the feedback was just, like, saying things that were completely contradictory to each other, and just making a wild gesture about what the problem was, and I was like, “I think you're wrong about that,” you know what I mean? I thought about a younger version of myself, if I was as impressionable or insecure as I maybe once was, I would have taken that at face value. And now I'm looking at it and I'm like, “Hell no! Like, that doesn't make any sense!” You know what I mean? Yeah, a little tangent there. But anyway, I love that change to the theatre industry. Do you have others? If you had a top three, like, what are some others that you want to see?
Maria: I'm going to use a really weird analogy here because I just watched Pirates of the Caribbean again. I would instate “parlay” into musical theatre. So like, if stuff is going down, you can just be like, “Parlay,” and I'm going to sit down and have a conversation with people who protect me and the people on the creative team. Because so often, I'm sitting in the back and everybody is going off about something, they're like, “I can't believe so-and-so said this, I can't believe this has happened again.” And I'm like, “Why don't we have a conversation about it?” And they're like, “Nope, I'm not getting into this. I don't want to actually do something about it because it's so terrifying,” the thought of confronting some of these giant directors and music directors and people that are very intimidating.
And I would love there to be some way we can call, and it's just, like, anything that happens and is said in this space has to be held sacred somehow, and you can't use it against me. It can't be retribution. It can't be anything like that. I would have that, because I think often it feels like going to company management in some way is, like, still a part of the company, because it is.
Hayley: Yeah, it's like HR. This is to support our employees, but actually, it's just to support the interests of the company itself.
Amy: Right. Like, who are you protecting? Yeah.
Maria: Yeah, if there was an outside source that could always be brought in. I know we have Equity, and Equity is complicated in different ways. They've been helpful in a couple of cases that I've dealt with. I'm grateful for the times that they have stepped in, and I feel like it's always one of those things where everyone's like, “Don’t call Equity, like, they're going to come in and it's going to be this whole thing…”
Amy: Well, that's the thing, it's so stigmatized. Yeah.
Maria: Yeah. And then every time you do it, they 100% are like, “Okay, we're not doing this. We're not doing that. Get out of here,” help you with it. Like, obviously that's their job, but calling Equity feels like literally having the nuclear codes. Like, it for some reason feels so… Like, it's been stigmatized. And so I think being able to empower people to reach out to the outside sources that protect us, actually being able to maybe have classes that teach people how to understand their contract.
Hayley: That’s a great idea, yeah.
Maria: There are so many things that get messed up in contracts that one just wouldn't know. We literally just sign them at the beginning of a thing and go, like, “Hope this isn't going to ruin my life.” So being able to be more educated about what it is we're doing all the time, I think, would be the ones I would say.
Amy: I was just gonna give a big shout out to communication, particularly within communities and creating communities that are safe spaces for communication. And also shoutout to safe words, because that's really what “Parlay” is in that context. It's a thing that is undervalued in our society, but it's amazing, the problem solving that can happen within communities when we all feel safe to express ourselves in a particular environment.
Maria: That's so true. The idea of safe space is so much deeper than I think people really actually understand. Like, you can say, “This is a safe space.” I don't trust ya! Like, I've been around long enough to know I don't trust that. So it's really proving that all the time, and the action of safe space. Like, “You've said this thing, I'm going to take action. I'm going to keep you safe while doing it.” So yeah, it's really, I think the only way we can create authentic and great art. The worst art I've ever created was when I was in spaces that I felt awful - like, you know, unsafe spaces. It's impossible to do your job.
Hayley: Yeah, and I think there's this narrative that, like, taking the time to create those spaces is gonna be inefficient, or that, you know, supporting people is gonna harm the sanctity of the art. And in every experience I've ever had, it's always the opposite. When the space is truly safe, everything moves faster, it's more efficient, the art is better. So I just wanna, like, call BS on that narrative right here, right now, in this moment, and say that yes, it does make things better and faster and more efficient.
Maria: It does. It's sort of the idea that - you know, my therapist talks about when you let things build up, then the blowup is going to be so much more dramatic and intense and take so much longer to resolve, instead of in the moment being like, “This doesn't work for me. How can we make this better?” And then it most likely will get resolved then and there. But when stuff is just simmering for long periods of time, it blows up in all of these different places that it might never have before. And so that is what solves processes. That's what makes things uncomfortable.
People always say, like, theatre is such a brave thing to do, and I think in so many ways it is. To just put yourself in a room of people and, like, come up with something is so scary. It's something that a lot of people don't do ever in their lives.
And I've been trying to be better about bringing a sense of more play into my work again. Because I think when you get so product-focused… I get to the point where, like, I won't even show anybody until I think it's perfect. And then you come in with a sense of defensiveness already. But being able to actually find true collaboration Is so wildly important for what we do, and we get so focused on, like, “What is my best? What is my best?” And not realizing how much better things are when you are able to truly collaborate with many different minds.
That's been something I'm really wanting to bring into 2025. I feel like I got good first steps in in 2024. And that's going to be what I focus on for the next year, is just true collaboration and creating spaces where people feel like they really can share and express.
Hayley: I love that.
Amy: Yeah! You can and you will!
Maria: That's right, yes!
(Musical transition)
Amy: Maria, I'd love to hear about - what are you most proud of in your life and in your work right now?
Maria: Oh man, what am I most proud of? You know, this last year I did a reading at 54 Below, it was kind of like a… more of a musical presentation of all of the songs of this show that I wrote. It's called Bloody Mary. This show was, like, the mountain of mountains to climb for me. I started writing it as a experiment, because I've always been really insecure about book writing or writing words in general. I'm dyslexic, I grew up not knowing it and learned way late - like, post-high school - that I was. And so I've always been very hard on myself, feeling like I'm not smart enough to be involved with language, because it's always been kind of hard for me to grasp the technical elements of language.
And so, I was like, you know what, I'm going to start writing this musical, and I'm going to write book, music, lyrics, see what happens. Because my writing partner was out of town on tour with Wicked. And I was like, “I'm just going to challenge myself.” And I would start it, and I would be like, “Oh, I don't know what I'm doing.” I'd be like, “This is terrible, it's blah!” And I just kept, like, digging at it for a whole year, and I wrote this whole thing. And I was like, “I feel really proud of this.” Like, I think I've cracked something inside of myself.
It was a total passion project. It's very swampy. It's very backwoods. It was an opportunity for me - and one of my really close friends, I wrote this part in it for her - to be like, “We are these two mixed Black girls who come from this swampy, weird Florida land. And we listen to country music, and we love rock.” And we love these things that we don't get to do very often in theatre, and I want to write a piece where we can do that, and we can be in our blue jeans and cowboy hats, and it's not about that. We just are, you know?
And so it's a piece a lot about, I would say, resilience and rebellion, and like, these women allowing themselves to be bad. To make choices that are for themselves and are selfish and sort of come to terms with the consequences of that. But also like, that they're not 100% the good guy you're rooting for the whole time, as, like, I think Black women sometimes have to present themselves - that they're perfect, and there's nothing wrong, and we're not angry, and we're not upset about anything. And I was like, I want these characters to be angry, and I want them to be dirty and say whatever they want.
And so, anyway, I wrote this piece. And the musical element - I don't have a music background. I have a musical theatre background, and I've studied music independently. And so, creating this piece and orchestrating and all of these things felt like a literal mountain. And at the same time, I was ending a relationship with someone who was kind of like an artistic rock for me, because I felt in a lot of ways that he was the “smart music one” and I was, like, the “ideas girl.” I didn't even realize how much I was putting myself down as an artist in relation to this person.
And doing this piece, I surrounded myself - it was that idea of, like, I'm surrounding myself with humans that I love and who respect me, and I respect them, and we're gonna make this show. We're gonna make it happen. And we put it all together and did it in July at 54 Below. It felt like a beast the entire time. I produced it, wrote it all together, and we did the piece.
And I'm so proud of it because I did it. It took a village. But like, I, so many times, just wanted to give up and be like, “Who are you to do this and to take up space and to write this show?” And I just kept being like, it feels like a story I want to tell. Yeah, so I'm really proud with how that all turned out, and I'm excited to continue developing it. It's a piece that I'm really passionate about, and I'm just really proud of myself. It's so hard to do this type of thing, and I'm just really proud that it all came together.
Amy: Yeah! That's amazing. Congratulations.
Maria: Thank you, thank you.
Amy: That's a good thing to be proud of, yeah.
Hayley: Yeah, and I just want to celebrate also that you said that with your full chest and with the biggest smile on your face, and like, that's really hard to do. I feel like for a lot of people, I feel like for people with connection to womanhood and relationship to womanhood, it can be especially difficult to kinda own that stuff. So I'm just, I wanna say kudos to you for that, and like, that inspires me.
Amy: Me too.
Hayley: So thank you for sharing that.
Maria: Thank you, thank you. That's a big thing, like, accepting compliments - I feel like I still work on it every time. My instinct is always to be like, “Oh…”
Hayley: “Oh no, this little ol’ thing,” yeah.
Maria: Yeah! And so I've been really trying to just be like, “Thank you!” And it does still sometimes make me uncomfortable, but just, like, being more celebratory about oneself, I think, is what allows these wonderful things to come to you. It's just like, letting go of all of this stuff in there and making space for more.
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: What a beautiful way to close out this interview. Thank you so much for being with us today, Maria. Could you share with our listeners where they can find you and your work on the interwebs?
Maria: Oh, sure. I'm terrible at technology, but I think this is where you can. So I'm on Instagram at @maria_wirries. I'm also, I'm on YouTube, I have various things up on there. I have a website. It's just my name, Maria Wirries. It's just my name, kind of literally anywhere. I also have things on Spotify, a couple EPs that I released over the last four years that I love and are fun and kind of snapshots of different moments of my life. Yeah.
Hayley: Amazing.
Amy: Fabulous! Thank you so much for being with us, Maria. It's such a pleasure.
Maria: Thank you. This made my whole day. I feel, like, ready to step into the world.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Oh my gosh, she's such a delight.
Amy: Yeah, such a great interview. Oh my gosh, I loved so much of all the wisdom she had to share with us. And she's doing such exciting things. I want to highlight the conversation that we had about making sure that we have a diversity of people in the top decision-making levels of this industry, because I completely agree with them. That is where real change can start being made, when we have those decision makers in the top levels. So that was a big takeaway for me from this interview. What about you?
Hayley: I said it at the end there, but I think, just like celebrating our wins. Maria shows up as a change maker and as an artist who is very joyful and excited to be where she is and also is fighting for change. Like, that's a beautiful thing. And it is sort of embodying this joy and celebration, and that in itself is radical and special. And so, that's a takeaway for me. There's often this notion that that when you're fighting for things, the word “fighting” feels combative.
Amy: That activism has to be from a place of anger, but activism can also be from a place of joy.
Hayley: Yeah, and also like, there's a place for rage, there's a place for anger, and also, we can do it with joy. I think that all these things can exist, and I think in speaking with them about their identity too, like, the fluidness and the mix of everything… I think that that wisdom can also be extended through to the way we show up in spaces. Like, there's room for, you know, our fullness of who we are. That’s what I’m seeing.
Amy: Totally! No, but you’re right. Yeah, I agree. I'm also taking the swamp witch thing with me. Love that, just love.
Hayley: Oh my god, so cool. Yeah. Yeah, badass. I think it's time that we uplift the people who inspire us. So who is your Trailblazer of the Week this week?
Amy: My Trailblazer of the Week this week is Kat Zimmerman, who's one of my lovely collaborators. We're writing an original musical about abortion rights called CYCLES, which I love. And Kat is an incredible composer, musical theatre writer. She also writes and performs opera. She's incredible.
But I want to specifically uplift her today as a mom, because she has been going on a really, really tough journey this year with some health stuff with her kids and her parents, and the way that she has been showing up for everyone in her family and everyone in her life is so beautiful. And I know that it's really hard, because I live that life too, and I just, I'm really inspired by all of the grace that she's shown in going through this. And by the clear boundaries that she's been setting around, like, “These are the times when I absolutely do not have creative energy to work on a project, and these are times when I really, really need to work on a project.”
So I really appreciate her modeling that for me, and it's just such a freaking pleasure to work with her. So my Trailblazer of the Week is Kat. Who's your Trailblazer of the Week, Hayley?
Hayley: My Trailblazer of the Week is Julia Sonya Koyfman, who is one of my very close friends and collaborators. She's one of our OG Women & Theatre interviewees, she's my work wife. I just love how she shows up as her full self, unapologetically, all the time. And that always inspires me, so… She's a genius. She's hilarious.
Amy: She is hilarious.
Hayley: She's an icon. She's a fashion icon also, like, her outfits are always on point. So love you, Julia, if you're listening.
Amy: I love that we're loving on our collaborators today, yay!
Hayley: Yeah. Well, let's continue the love fest. So Amy, I'm going to hype you up today, because I know that you came into this interview and this week has been sort of, like, scattered for you, but you really came in and I just saw you light up with so much joy in this interview and, like, showed up with presence of mind and energy, and I want to commend you on that. So that's the hype for me.
Amy: Thank you, I appreciate it! Yeah, this is - as you know, these interviews are the joys of my day, joys of my week. Hayley, I want to hype you up because we were just having that big conversation with Maria about creating spaces in which people feel safe, and I just, I know that that is so central to everything you do as a writer and as a director.
And I see that the spaces that you create in are so grounded in just being really thoughtful about “What is it that we can do? What is needed to make this a space where people can show up as their full selves and bring whatever they've got to the table in a way that is helpful?” And that is not just moving the project forward, but also, like, being humans together in a space and that being okay. And I really love and respect and admire that about you and your work in all the spaces you're in. So yay you!
Hayley: Oh my gosh. That was so nice. Thank you. I'm gonna practice, instead of folding with like, “Oh no!”…
Amy: “Oh, that ol’ thing!”
Hayley: I'm gonna practice what Maria just inspired me to do and say thank you very much for that. I do put a lot of thought and energy into making that happen, and it's very nice to be validated that way, so I appreciate you. Listeners, go be your full authentic selves. We'll see you next week. We love you!
Amy: Yes! We love you!
Hayley: Go rock your week out. Bye!
Amy: Bye!
(Musical transition)
Amy: Looking for community and accountability? Drop in and join us for our next virtual co-working session on Tuesday, March 11th at 11am Eastern Time. Bring yourself, your creative projects and ideas, and a cozy beverage and let's get stuff done! To get the Zoom link, visit the community events page on our website or check out the link in the show notes.
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews! If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show was written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
