S3E6: Kelley Girod
In this episode, Hayley and Amy chat with playwright and producer Kelley Girod, the founder of The Fire This Time Festival and Director of New Works at the Apollo, about the vital importance of building community, uplifting the visibility of people and stories and voices we have not yet experienced, stepping into discomfort to create sustainable practices in theatre, and more! Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Guest: Kelley Girod
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
The Apollo and the Apollo’s Victoria Theater
Parity Productions - This Stretch of Montpelier
Guest Bio:
Kelley Nicole Girod (she/her) is a playwright and producer, as well as Director of New Work at the world-famous theater The Apollo. In addition, Kelley continues to serve as Executive Director of OBIE award-winning The Fire This Time Festival, a platform for early-career Black playwrights, which she founded in 2009. Kelley is also an award-winning playwright (Parity Productions Commission, Sundance IDP Grant Recipient, Atlantic Launch New Play Commission, Sheen Center Fellow, Stein and Liberace Fellow, John Golden Fellow ) whose work has been developed/presented at Atlantic Theater Company, Sheen Center for Thought and Culture, The Fire This Time Festival, Harlem 9, Primary Stages, Project Y, Poetic Theater Productions, Classical Theater of Harlem, Frigid NYC, Planet Connections Theater Festival, The Field, Dixon Place, and Stanford University’s TAPS Program. She was recently named the recipient of 2023 New York Innovative Theater’s prestigious Ellen Steward Award. She was also a 2020 nominee of the prestigious Paul Robeson Award. Kelley has served as a guest lecturer at Yale School for Drama, Stanford University’s Theater Department, and Cal State-Fullerton. Kelley has also held the positions of Programming Associate at The Sheen Center for Thought and Culture and Producing Director at The Billie Holiday Theater. In addition, Kelley is editor of The Fire This Time Festival’s first anthology of plays, published with Bloomsbury UK/Methuen Drama and titled 25 Plays from The Fire This Time Festival, A Decade of Recognition, Resistance, Rebirth and Black Theater. Kelley is a 2008 graduate of Columbia’s MFA Playwriting program.
Find Kelley Online:
The Apollo
The Fire This Time Festival
Facebook
LinkedIn
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, and welcome to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We're your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cup of coffee and join us as we talk to people in the theatre industry about their experiences with womanhood.
Hayley: On the pod, we interview people with different gender identities, from different backgrounds, with varying levels of industry experience and professional roles.
Amy: Our goal is to build community and pool our collective wisdom to break down the barriers we continue to face.
(Music)
Amy: Today’s guest, Kelley Nicole Girod, is a playwright and producer, as well as Director of New Work at the world-famous theatre The Apollo. In addition, Kelley continues to serve as Executive Director of OBIE award-winning The Fire This Time Festival, a platform for early-career Black playwrights which she founded in 2009. Kelley is also an award-winning playwright whose work has been developed and presented at Atlantic Theater Company, Sheen Center for Thought and Culture, The Fire This Time Festival, Harlem 9, Primary Stages, Project Y, Poetic Theater Productions, Classical Theater of Harlem, Frigid NYC, Planet Connections Theater Festival, The Field, Dixon Place, and Stanford University’s TAPS Program. She was recently named the recipient of the 2023 New York Innovative Theater’s prestigious Ellen Steward Award. She was also a 2020 nominee for the Paul Robeson Award. Kelley has served as a guest lecturer at Yale School for Drama, Stanford University’s Theater Department, and Cal State-Fullerton. Kelley has also held the position of Programming Associate at The Sheen Center for Thought and Culture and served as Producing Director at The Billie Holiday Theater. In addition, Kelley is Editor of The Fire This Time Festival’s first anthology of plays, published with Bloomsbury UK/Methuen Drama, titled 25 Plays from The Fire This Time Festival: A Decade of Recognition, Resistance, Rebirth and Black Theater. Kelley is a 2008 Graduate of Columbia’s MFA Playwriting Program.
Hayley: Hello listeners, we are here with the brilliant Kelley Girod. Kelley, can you please introduce yourself, share your pronouns, and tell us a little bit about what you do in theatre?
Kelley: Sure. Kelley Girod, pronouns are she/her/hers. I am a playwright, I'm a producer, founder of The Fire This Time Festival, and also the director of new work at the Apollo. And I've held that position for about two years, and I primarily develop new work under that position.
Amy: Fantastic. Can you tell us a little bit about how you came to theatre and to all of the things that you're doing?
Kelley: Sure. Well, prior to coming to New York, I grew up in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. I have nine siblings, and so I used to put them together and make them do plays and productions and stuff. And it wasn't until I got to college and I took my first playwriting class with Femi Euba that I realized that a profession in the theatre was an actual thing and quickly changed my course to playwriting and to theatre.
So that led me to New York - I did my master's in playwriting at Columbia. We had a stellar class. Some of my classmates were Jocelyn Bioh, Rachel Chavkin, Tony Speciale, Kim Wield, the list just goes on and on.
Amy: Wow!
Kelley: Yeah, it was a crazy year. I mean, it was just awesome. But I started really producing when I graduated, because I quickly recognized that if I wanted to create my own stories on my own terms, as a Black female playwright, that I was going to have to make space for myself.
So that is what led to the founding of The Fire This Time Festival, although at the time I didn't realize I was founding something that would continue for 15 years. I just thought I wanted to be in community with the other playwrights I was hearing about at the time, you know, Pia Wilson, Radha Blank, Katori Hall, Marcus Gardley - all these people, I've been hearing about them all. And I literally sent a cold call email and said, “Hey, let's all get together and put up some of our work.” And in that first year of The Fire This Time Festival, down on East 4th Street in the Red Room, it was myself, Radha Blank, Pia Wilson, Katori Hall, Derek McPhatter, Germono Toussaint, and the rest is history. Here we are 15 years later.
Over the past 15 years, with the producing that I've done, that just kind of naturally led me into the work that I now do at the Apollo - which is that I just get to do, on a bigger scale and with a bigger budget, what I do through The Fire This Time, which is to support Black theater makers and Black storytellers.
Hayley: That is amazing.
Amy: Yeah. Congratulations on the upcoming 15th The Fire This Time Festival! That's incredible. How does it feel having 15 years of doing this thing that's still going?
Kelley: You know, it's surreal. And I fully cannot even take the credit for it. The Fire This Time has become a community over the past 15 years. People come in, they come out. We give, we take, and that's really how it functions. The Fire This Time is really still going because of that - the creation of a community that sustains it. I have to give big props to my amazing artistic director, Cezar Williams; A.J. Muhammad, who's our producer and leads the new play development along with Cynthia Robinson, producers Julienne Hairston, Danielle Covington, and also Erez Ziv, where we have had a home with Frigid NYC for the past 15 years. And so all of those elements keep it going. It takes a village.
Hayley: Absolutely. Can you tell us a little bit about other creative projects that you're excited about, recent and upcoming?
Kelley: Yeah. As a writer, I have been working on a trilogy of plays about Louisiana, and about my Cajun Creole history specifically, for about the past seven years. So this past summer, one of the plays in the trilogy, This Stretch of Montpelier, received a developmental production, and we were just nominated for seven Broadway World Awards.
It's particularly nice to have that recognition because my work as a writer is really about uplifting the stories, specifically, of people in Louisiana. We are underrepresented on stages and in film. We are a truly American state, we have so many different stories. And I think that there's so much of my family's history and the place that Louisiana is that can teach us about our country as a whole. So anytime anything that I'm doing about Louisiana gets recognition, it makes my heart so happy because I know that our stories, our people, our history, our language will be documented, will be seen.
Hayley: Kelley, you're so mission-driven in your work. You've already been talking about uplifting Black playwrights, the stories of folks from Louisiana. If you had to name a creative mission for yourself across all of your work, what would you say it is?
Kelley: I think visibility is a big thing. It's funny you asked that, Hayley, because I was reflecting the other day - you know, I have these moments where - you're busy, you kind of get into a grind. And I try to have times where I pull myself out a little bit and try to remind myself of the “why” of what I'm doing.
I remember hearing somewhere that the way that you choose your profession is linked to how you overcome certain traumas in childhood. And the interesting thing is that I was a middle child - I’m number five of 10. It wasn't necessarily traumatic that I kind of always flew under the radar, because I enjoyed that. I just did whatever I wanted.
Hayley: You did your thing.
Amy: Yeah. It's nice to not be seen sometimes.
Kelley: Yeah. But when you're the fifth of 10, you're fighting for visibility always. And so I was like, “That's my thing.” Making something visible. And so I say that, if there was a simple way for me to say what ultimately I'm doing across everything that I do - whether that's writing, producing, or curating, whatever it is - is uplifting the visibility of people and stories and voices we have not yet experienced.
Amy: I love that mission for you. That's great.
(Musical transition)
Amy: So I'd love to talk a little bit about womanhood and other aspects of your identity and how they intersect with the creative work you're doing and with your mission of increasing visibility. Let's start with womanhood and what it means to you and has meant to you in your life.
Kelley: Oh, wow. Gosh. I would say that it was always hard for me to think of myself as a woman first, because I was always thinking of myself as a person of color first. Always. Because where I grew up, myself and my siblings were usually the only Black people anywhere. We made up the Black population at my school. We made up the Black population at my church. So I feel like that aspect of my identity was always in the forefront.
And then also because I was always trying to figure out what we were… You know, growing up of mixed descent, particularly in Louisiana… You have parents who speak French, and the Cajun Creole community - so I have nine siblings, and we all look different. I have brothers who are blonde and green-eyed. I have sisters who are redheads. I have brothers who are - like, beautiful chocolate skin. I mean, we represent every skin tone, hair texture, eye color. And because I didn't have, necessarily, a vocabulary for trying to figure out… “Well, we're not white, but, you know, we're black…” And it was always because people were always asking me, “What are you?” And I think that the question just kind of dominated my life.
And I don't think that I really stepped into my womanhood until my college years, because suddenly I was on a college campus and there were lots of different kinds of people. And I wasn't just in that bubble of being the one or the two or the three or whatever… That I really just got to embrace myself and think more about myself as a woman. And then I think particularly, when I got pregnant for the first time and I was just like, “Oh my God, look what my body can do. This is amazing.”
So I think my journey with my womanhood specifically has been one that's been evolving. And then I think now those two things intersect in a beautiful way, where I think about, “What does it mean to be a Black woman? What does it mean to be a Creole woman?” I recently - I just texted my mom and my sisters and I was like, “Tell me what you love about being Creole. What does being Creole mean to you?” and got all these beautiful answers. So I'm very much still on that…still evolving on that journey.
Amy: That’s great! I want to see the play that comes out of “Tell me what you love about being a Creole woman.”
Hayley: Yeah, me too. Do you feel comfortable sharing some of the things that your mom and your sisters said to you?
Kelley: Yeah. You know, they just said that they loved how we're all so different and unique, and I agree with them. My daughters finally met their great-grandmother, and my grandmother, growing up - she has beautiful brown skin, these huge hands. She's always had this long black braid that she can essentially sit on. And she has looked that way her entire life. And so, having her take pictures beside my daughters, who are very fair-skinned - one with red hair, one with jet-black hair - and that mixture, that rainbow, all side by side, and we all share the same blood and the same history. That, I think, was the overwhelming thing that my mom and my sisters said that they really loved and appreciated about us.
That's a journey, too, because I think that for me and my sisters, there wasn't any one of us who didn't go through, you know, “What am I? Do I mold myself to fit in with more white people? Do I mold myself to fit in with more Black people? We all went through that. And I think it's also just the relief of finally stepping into yourself as you are, and being able to give that now to our children. It's one thing I really do appreciate, that I was really able to come to terms with, so that my daughters - they are who they are, you know, and giving them the confidence to lean into that.
Hayley: Yeah, that's a beautiful thing, for sure. Kelley, what has the journey been like with the intersections of your identity and with theatre?
Kelley: Yeah, you know, the interesting thing is that when I'm working on my own stuff - The Fire This Time or my own writing, or whatever it is - it's not something that I'm consciously thinking about. I'm not consciously thinking about myself as a Black woman in a theatrical space. And I think that that's only because of the space that we've created for ourselves.
I recently did an interview with Randy Cohen, and he said, “Is a place like the Apollo still relevant in today's world?” Which, you know, obviously it is. But I said one of the big reasons is that there are very few places where you can cross a threshold and not feel like you're compromising any of yourself. That is the real value of spaces like the Apollo and spaces like The Fire This Time. So when I'm in spaces like that and I'm just creating, I'm only thinking about the work. I'm not thinking about how I need to adjust myself for just in case, or anything like that.
There have been times where I've been in spaces where I've been the only one, and the burden of having to hold that and having to explain to people why it's not okay… When you're in a predominantly white institution, the question of diversity always comes up. Like, “What do we do to get so-and-so in?” And it's never a question of building relationships. It's always a question of “What play are we going to put on so that people will come to see this?” And that's totally not the way. So there's ways that we adjust ourselves depending on the space that we're in. And so I would say that's the main answer. It depends on where I am and what I’m doing that will constitute how I will feel like I need to conduct myself.
Amy: Can you tell us a little bit about parenthood and how that has intersected with your theatre making?
Kelley: Yeah. It has made me more prolific
Hayley: Everyone says that, Kelley. Like, every mom who comes on here…
Amy: We're efficient, moms. We're efficient because we have to be.
Kelley: I am so happy to hear that. When I had all the time on my hands, I was just like always finding everything but the time.
Amy: Right!
Kelley: And so then when my oldest Penelope, when she came along, I just remember getting this fire under me. She would be in her bassinet and I would be writing, or when she was small, she would get in the carrier, she'd come downtown with me. I remember sitting her on the stage and she couldn't even walk. Fast forward to over the summer, my girls were in rehearsals with me to the point where they were asking me about the characters. To the point where the director would ask, “So what did Noelle and Penelope think?” Because if they weren't getting it, then nobody was getting it, right?
But it is - like, every aspect of my day is accounted for. And I'll also say that, because of the circumstances in which my mother grew up and the lack of choices that she had, when my daughters came along, I said to myself, “I never want to have to say to them: I should have done X, Y, and Z, or I wish I would have done X, Y, and Z. I will try to do all of those things so that I can show them.” I didn't want them to have to hear about any regrets or anything that I had. So I was just like, “Okay, if you want to do this, Kelley, let's do this, and we'll find a way to do it,” you know?
Amy: Yeah, I feel that so hard. I feel like as mothers of daughters, we have to be brave so that they know that they can be brave.
Kelley: Yeah. Yeah.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Kelley, if you could make one change to the theatre industry - or two or three - wave your magic wand, what would it be?
Kelley: Oh my god. The timing of you asking this question is so important, Hayley, because I spent the beginning of this week at a convening that was put together by the National Black Theatre of Black theatres across the country. To just sit and reflect on where we are now, what the needs are, how do we make the work happen and also make the work sustainable, make the work/life balance sustainable, so people can have a life. If I could wave a magic wand right now, I would have too many wishes. Buildings for our legacy institutions. Retirement plans. Succession plans.
Our young writers need space, they need time, they need money, and that's gotta be somewhere. I refuse to believe that it's all gone, it's all dried up. There has to be a solution.
Hayley: In the spaces I've been in, there's a lot of fear right now around: How are we going to continue to push these things forward? But I believe as well that there's got to be a way.
Amy: Yeah, there has to be. I mean, theatre is resilient, and humans are resilient, so there must be a way. And we will find it.
Kelley: I've been in New York for almost 20 years now, and when I was at Columbia, I was hearing that the theatre was dying. Here's the thing: It's dying and it's difficult if you're not making a choice to be uncomfortable and change. We have to change. We might have to be uncomfortable. We might have to stop being so top-heavy, and maybe some more of that money can trickle down. Anything is possible. I think you just have to want to do it.
I don't want any CEOs or executives or anything like listening to this and being like, “Oh, well, how does Kelley know? She's never done X, Y, and Z?” I know it’s - from the people who do it, I know it's difficult. I really do. And I think it's hard to get people to change their mindset. How do we change the mindset around value? It's valuable to be on the ground during development. You get to be a part of shaping the thing before it becomes Hamilton, right? You can say, “I was in the room where it happened.”
So yeah, I think we're going to be okay if we want to be. As you said, Amy, this is an art form that's been around for a long time. It's also an art form that's deeply based in ritual and spirituality. We perform a theatrical ceremony every time we ask for something that we pray or that we need. It's been around, it's not going anywhere, and maybe we just need to think about how we shift the way that we value it.
Hayley: Yeah. From your perspective, Kelley, what is the how behind that? Like, how do we start to shift people's value around all of this?
Kelley: I think probably we have to reconsider a business model that doesn't necessarily seem to be working. I also think that we have to find a way to make the theatre accessible. People want to go to theatre. They want to go to theatre. But I will say this - as somebody who works in the industry, I cannot afford to go and see everything that I want to.
Hayley: Oh my god, no.
Kelley: My daughters have been dying to go see Wicked and I'm like, okay, well that's gonna have to be… like, that's a big event. I'm very encouraged by initiatives like, for example, when the Apollo's new spaces open, we have funding in place to be able to offer all of the tickets at a price of between $20 to 25. You know, you're going to be able to experience that.
But then that leads me to - it is very difficult to have a system that relies on people who want to give or don't want to give. Funding changes and funding trends change. And actually also, those funding parameters exclude a lot of incubator spaces. They exclude spaces that are not operating at at least $250,000 a year. So there's a whole subsection of artists that we're not thinking about. I think it would require a lot of discomfort in changing the way that we see space, changing the way that we think about ticket prices. The first step in the how is: How do we step into getting uncomfortable? Collectively. To really be able to enact some real change.
Hayley: That makes a lot of sense.
Amy: Before we go somewhere else, Kelley, can you tell our listeners about the new spaces you’re getting at the Apollo? 'Cause I'm so excited about that and I wanna hear more about it!
Kelley: Yeah, yeah. So I've been at my position at the Apollo for two years, and the position of Director of New Work has been in existence since about 2019 when the new works initiative was announced. Our former CEO, Jonelle Procope, who just resigned last year, she spent the past 20 years of her tenure getting the spaces that are going to be named the Victoria and are right next door to the historic building, getting that to happen.
And so when those new spaces open on February 1st, there is a 199-seat theatre, a 99-seat theatre, a gallery, an office, and workspaces, that will essentially be our incubator space for being able to create new work. And this is under the brilliant vision of Executive Producer Kamilah Forbes, who was really like, “How do we find the artists who are going to build the next American canon that centers the Black experience?” And if the historic building and that stage is our history, how are we investing in our future? How are we investing in and bringing in the artists who are going to write that legacy play or that legacy album or whatever it is, that we align so much with our historic space at the Apollo?
If I never did anything else in the theatre, being at the Apollo at this time for this cultural moment in history, it's just - there's nothing like it.
Hayley: It's huge, Kelley. Congratulations.
Kelley: I'm forever grateful to Kamilah for trusting me to do that. And also, the leadership team is just, it's incredible. It's like no other place that I've worked for so many different reasons.
Hayley: Yeah, it sounds like a beautiful community.
Kelley: Yeah, I work under all Black female leadership. My Senior Director of Programming Leatrice Ellzy… Senior Producer Laura Greer, who has been at the Apollo for like, 18 years… Kamilah Forbes, obviously… Michelle Ebanks, our new CEO… Our MarComm team. These are all incredible Black women, but they are also just incredible in the way that they…the trickle down of leadership. There have been times where I was supposed to show up for a donor thing and my daughter had fever. And I would text Kamilah, and she's like, “Kelley, you be with your daughter, I got us.”
Hayley: That is the best response.
Kelley: It is never a question of where my priorities are. It's such a supportive environment where there's an understanding. We respect each other so much that the work gets done - like, we cover each other. We pick up where we see that somebody is - things are getting a little bit crazy for them, but I've got a little bit more space right here, so let me reach out and let me work. That's who we are. We just hold each other, and it's fabulous.
Kamilah, Leatrice, Fatima, Laura, Maya, Kristen, are not only fabulous because they're Black women. They're fabulous because of who they are and their leadership style and their level of respect and how they trust and empower.
Amy: That's a dream. That's what every workspace should be like.
Hayley: I was gonna say! It's incredibly inspiring, and what a great model for people to be able to look up to.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Kelley, what are some things that you wish you had known when you were just starting out? If you could reach back to the people behind you, what would you want to tell them?
Kelley: I would want to tell them to take their time. It takes time to create work. It's a process. We live in an instant culture now. You start a project, and there's this idea that it's going to be done and it's going to be perfect in like three months. When I'm mentoring my interns or my apprentices, I'll bring them in the room whenever they're doing a project or a piece in development, and I'll say, “Okay, this is where this piece is now.” And they've been working on this since 2013, and their jaws drop. I've been working on my trilogy for seven years, so whatever iterations you see, that's been seven years in the making. These things take time. Don't try to be famous overnight.
I would also say don't be ashamed of having your day job, because you're going to need it. Until you get to the place where you're generating income from your work, you're probably going to have to have a day job, and that's okay. So think about the other things that you're good at. I, for years, worked the front desk of doctor's offices, because I had worked for my father, who's a family practitioner. I'd worked in his office for years. So I knew how to bill, I knew how to chart. That's what you do until you don't have to do it anymore.
And I think when I left grad school, I just expected that I was going to get an agent and I was going to be fabulous and all of these things. And then, because nobody had prepared me for that reality, it was a shock, and it was a little bit depressing. I went to an Ivy League master’s, and I'm walking the dog and like, picking up its poop.
Amy: That's real.
Hayley: Yeah, that's so real. It still baffles me that so many university programs for artists don't adequately prepare you in that sense - like, what a life as a freelancer and as an artist actually is.
Kelley: For The Fire This Time this year, we usually have a kickoff panel - and for this year's panel, I really wanted to get really real about the business. Having an agent - what does the agent get you? What is the percent? Because so many people have agents or are with agencies, and there's so much smoke and mirrors and lack of transparency just around what it is to be in this industry. And I'm like, “Okay, enough.” How much are you making in TV? Let's talk about the sustainability of that. Let's just put it all on the table because we all need to know, right?
Amy and Hayley: Yeah, absolutely.
Kelley: Nobody goes into an industry not knowing what they're getting into. I come from a family of lots of doctors. You don't take out student loans to go into medicine unless you have a very clear understanding of a trajectory and how much you make and all of that. This is the one industry where I'm just like: How does nobody know? How do you not know what you can possibly make and how to do future planning and all of this? Why is there still so much secrecy around how much you make off of a play, or royalties, or what you make off of a TV show, how much of a percentage your agent gets, what kind of work your agent gets you? It baffles me.
Hayley: Yeah, absolutely.
Amy: It is baffling.
Hayley: Yeah. Well, Kelley, we could keep talking to you literally forever and ever, but we want to be respectful of your time. So I have one last question for you, which is what are you most proud of in your life and in your work?
Kelley: My kids, my kids. I love them so much. My husband and I, my family. I come from a big family. Family's at the center of everything. I always knew that I wanted to be a mother, and that is the thing that comes first. My husband and I, we really design our world around making sure that someone is always there for them, like, no matter what we're going through.
My husband's an oncologist, and you can imagine how busy his world is. And still, the thing that is most important to us is being there when our kids wake up, being there when they go to sleep, pick ups, drop offs, the pageants, all the things, the recitals, you know. And so, that's the answer.
Amy: I wish that our listeners could see how your face lights up when you talk about your family.
Hayley: Beaming!
Amy: It's really, really special.
Kelley: Oh, thank you. Thank you.
Amy: Well, thank you so much, Kelley, for being here with us.
Kelley: Thank you. I just wanna commend you for the space that you are hoping to make in this industry. The good questions you're asking and the answers that will come through this will help us to make this industry better. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep going.
Hayley: Thank you, that means a lot. Kelley, do you want to tell the listeners where they can find you on the internet?
Kelley: Sure, you can find me on Facebook and LinkedIn because I am probably one step removed from a Luddite. People are just like, “You should get on Instagram!” And I'm like, “Nah, I'm good.” But I don't know. You might run into me on the sidewalk randomly.
Amy: Yeah!
Hayley: Love it.
Kelley: Thank you.
Hayley: Thank you, Kelley!
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: And Amy Andrews. If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show is written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
