S1E3: Imposter Syndrome
In this episode, Hayley and Amy have a frank conversation about imposter syndrome, that delightful critical voice that lurks at the back of every creative mind. We share our own experiences, observations, and coping mechanisms in the hopes that by shining a light on these experiences, we can all feel a little less alone. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Looking for affordable therapy? The Entertainment Community Fund (formerly the Actors Fund) provides mental health services and other social services to anyone in the entertainment industry.
Big Magic: Creative Living Beyond Fear by Elizabeth Gilbert
Quiz: What’s your love language?
How does imposter syndrome show up in your life? Tell us about your experiences and coping mechanisms, and your story may be featured on a future episode of the Women & Theatre Podcast!
Thanks for listening!
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, and welcome to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We're your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cup of coffee and join us as we explore the experiences of women and nonbinary people in the theatre industry.
Hayley: On the pod, we interview people from different backgrounds with varying levels of industry experience and professional roles.
Amy: Our goal is to build community, identify the unique benefits that women and nonbinary folks bring to theatrical spaces, and pool our collective wisdom to break down the barriers we continue to face.
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, Women & Theatre girls and girlies! We are back today to talk about something that is very close to my heart in particular. We are talking imposter syndrome. This is a theme that has come up in pretty much every conversation we've had.
I just wanna ask you, Amy, to get us started today, do you wanna talk about an experience that you've had with imposter syndrome?
Amy: Yeah! You know, what's on my mind right at the moment is I was having a conversation with a friend last night about the different flavors of imposter syndrome. Specifically, we were talking about imposter syndrome for composing versus for lyric writing. I consider myself a lyricist, but I do dabble in writing music from time to time.
What I was saying, which fascinated me to hear the words coming out of my mouth, was that for composition, imposter syndrome often feels like I'm out of my depth, like I don't know the language, I don't know the rules, that kind of thing. Whereas with lyric writing, it's kind of the opposite for me, because where I go to in my head is… I'm like, “Well, it's English. Like, it's putting words together. Like, anyone could do that.” What makes me more qualified than anyone else to string a bunch of words together and call it a lyric?
So those are two specific ways that imposter syndrome has been coming up for me recently. What about you, Hayley? How does imposter syndrome live in your life?
Hayley: I recently prepared for an interview for a big opportunity. I made it to the final round of interviews, but when I got the email congratulating me, I was really excited at first. And then the second thing that popped into my head was like, “I'm not qualified enough for this.” My whole body was telling me, like, you're too young. You're too inexperienced. You don't really have anything to offer these people. Horrible things that I would never say to my friends, you know.
This is something I think about too, is like, I have a really wonderful support system. I’ve had friends say to me, like, “You're amazing, you're a rock star. You got this, you're a kickass woman. They'd be lucky to have you.” And those are the types of things that I say to my friends too, to lift them up and cheerlead for them. But for whatever reason, like, it's just way harder to be a cheerleader for yourself. You know?
Amy: Yeah! The voices in our own heads are so harsh. We are so harsh to ourselves. I say things to myself in my head that I would never in a million years say to someone that I love.
Hayley: Because it's something that's come up in our interviews a lot, do you think imposter syndrome is more common for women specifically, for nonbinary folks? Like, do you think it's more common for us?
Amy: Do you know what? I think that imposter syndrome, to a certain extent, is universal. Like, with the exception of perhaps narcissists… I think perhaps for people in marginalized groups, it may present a little differently.
So say I'm a straight cis white man. Everything in society, all of the messages I'm getting, are you can do this thing. This thing is for you. You are awesome. You can do it. Whereas for women, for nonbinary folks, for people of color, we are so often combating not only the messages in our heads but also messages in society, right? That are like, well, I don't know, like, can she do it? Does she have the experience? Would it be better if it was done by a man?
I feel like we're dealing with imposter syndrome that is compounded by societal stereotypes and messaging. And so for that reason, I think that our struggles are different. What do you think?
Hayley: I'm thinking of one specific instance where I was having coffee with a mentor of mine. I remember specifically asking them, like, "Hey, what do you do when you just think you can't do it? Do you ever worry that you're not good enough? Like, how do you combat those things?" Because I feel like for me as an artist, that's like my biggest battle, is I don't think I'm good enough. I don't think I deserve it. Someone else knows more than me.
And I just remember him looking at me and being like, "No, I don't really think I've ever dealt with that." And he was a cis straight white man. And I remember feeling so confused by that response because I was just like, how can you go through life as an artist, not knowing where your next job is coming from, your next gig, your next opportunity... How can you go through that and not ever question whether you have the smarts or the skills or whatever it is? It blew my mind.
Amy: Well, that's fascinating. I mean, if you could put that in a pill, I know a lot of people who would take it. I think it's really interesting - you kind of alluded to this before, but yeah... I mean, I think men are socialized, particularly in our culture, they're socialized to be so strong and so dependent on themselves and not really live within a community.
And so I wonder if that's part of it, like both good and bad. Both that people who are not marginalized groups, let's say, are able to rely more on themselves and trust themselves more because that's what they're socialized to do. And also that some people might not necessarily be able to recognize imposter syndrome when it comes knocking on their door.
And I wish I could turn off mine. I wish I could ignore it. That'd be cool. But I also see where like, if you're having those feelings and you're not able to acknowledge it, that could also be a tough journey.
(Music)
Hayley: I just wanna ask you, how do you deal with managing your imposter syndrome when it comes up for you?
Amy: Goodness gracious. Well, first I sit in a corner and cry. (laughs)
Yeah, I mean, like you, I have a strong support system of friends and loved ones who I can reach out to and say, "Hey, I feel like I'm no good at any of this." And these wonderful people who I've surrounded myself with will reach back to me and say, "Okay, I hear that you feel that way. Also, guess what? You're pretty good at this." I think for me, that is invaluable, having my people that I can call up and just talk to about it.
Also, you know, I try to keep a list of warm fuzzies, a list of nice things people have said about me that, like, I can go back and look at. Just to remind myself of little wins. I find that sometimes that helps.
Hayley: Yeah, the little wins thing is really good. I've started doing that too, like with regards to my creative pursuits. Like, if I get to the next round of something, that's a win. It's not just getting the thing.
Amy: Well, and also being your own best friend, right? It's such a hard practice to cultivate, but like, being kind to yourself and being generous with yourself. Go to therapy, please go to therapy. It's so good. And that really gives you tools to help deal with things like imposter syndrome.
Hayley: My therapist says to me, "Is this real? Is this helpful?" You know, like the feeling is real, but like, is it rooted in reality or is it the feelings of fight or flight talking to you?
Amy: Well, and if imposter syndrome is a story that we tell ourselves that we make up in our heads, then why not make up a different story that serves us better?
Hayley: Absolutely. What is that new story? And how can we make that a part of our daily life and how we speak to ourselves?
High-achieving people struggle the most, I feel like, with imposter syndrome. And I think, as we've talked about in a lot of interviews, I think women, women of color specifically, nonbinary folks, trans women specifically, people who have multiple intersecting identities often feel like they have to prove themselves twice as much.
Amy: Oftentimes do have to prove themselves twice as much to get to the same benchmarks.
Hayley: Or three times or four times. Exactly. Whether that's like the systemic issues that have held people back where you're just starting further behind, or whether that's how you speak to yourself because of the messaging you've gotten from society… I think all of that plays a role in it, for sure.
Amy: Yeah.
(Music)
Amy: Hayley, are there specific triggers for you or moments that you feel like, “Oh my God…,” like moments that you see that your imposter syndrome is often coming up for you?
Hayley: Yeah. I'm really fine once I'm on the job somewhere. I feel very at home in a theater, in a rehearsal hall, like those types of places, it happens much less because my body actually knows what to do in those spaces. It's when I'm interviewing for a job or if I'm with a crowd of people that I view as being on a different rung of the industry than me. People who, in some way, I feel like I have to impress or prove to them that I am enough...
When I'm in spaces with people who I view as peers, or people who create spaces where people can feel like they are on the same level as each other, I don't tend to struggle with it as much. When I enter into a space where I can tell that someone is treating me like a professional and like a peer, I don't feel that fear as much.
That's part of why I'm so passionate about creating those spaces myself, because I feel like it's so scary to show up and prove yourself. And everyone has to deal with it. But if you're a librettist, like, it takes a long time to have a fully developed script that you're proud of, you know? Or like as a director, it's super weird and elusive, so when you're starting out, it's like, how do I prove to you that I know how to make a thing?
Amy: Right. And the arts are, it's so subjective. Success in the arts is so subjective and people measure it in all different ways. But because of that, we may not be measuring ourselves and our own successes according to the same ruler that everybody else in the room is, right? And like, you can bet in a room full of artists, that every single person in that room is managing their own internal struggle of like, am I good enough to be in this room?
Well, and it's interesting what you said about that, like, in situations that are doing the work, that you don't feel it as much. Whereas in situations where you're, like, looking for the work or looking to make connections, that you feel it more--
Hayley: Oh, yeah. I feel very confident leading a space. When I'm sitting at the table and I've chosen the people who are going to enter into that space, I know what I'm doing and I know how to steer the ship. I don't worry about it then, but it's when I'm asking for something.
Amy: It's striking to me because in the arts, unlike in a lot of other work spaces, we spend a disproportionate amount of our time seeking work and seeking connection and meeting people. We do that in ways that people in other sectors do not. That balance just looks different.
Hayley: We get told no a lot more. The volume of yeses to nos is very different. The path to success looks different on everyone.
Amy: Well, and the definitions of success are different too. People define success in all different ways in this industry, which I think is super healthy and awesome. Especially because it is a career that has to be so much about the journey and not the destination and celebrating those small wins along the way.
I wanna problematize the binary of like, “You're right for this opportunity and you're not right for this opportunity.”
Hayley: Problematize away.
Amy: Thank you, I will! I think in the arts, it's built up as that. Auditions are a great example, right? You go into the room and all these people are auditioning for this part. And you're like, oh, am I good enough? Or am I not good enough?
But that's really a false binary you set up for yourself, because actually the people behind the casting table are sitting there going, "Okay, well, we need this part to cover this other part so we need someone of a certain height or a certain type," or like, "Oh, we know that the composer is playing around with this song. So we need someone who has that range." It could be any number of things that are going on in their brains. And very little of it is, “Are they good enough or not good enough?” It's a matter of being in the right space with the right people at the right time. Seeking your people and the opportunities that are for you.
Hayley: I just wish there was more transparency about what the rubric was.
Amy: But is there a rubric? I don't think there is a rubric. I think it's Elizabeth Gilbert in Big Magic where she's talking about ideas and opportunities, and you recognize, okay, this is my opportunity. And you do it. And on the flip side is, if I put myself out there for this opportunity and it doesn't work out, okay, I didn't get that opportunity. Great. That wasn't the right opportunity for me. I'm gonna keep reaching out for things that look like the right opportunity. And eventually I'll find the one that's the best fit for me.
Another theme that comes up a lot in Women & Theatre is the idea of scarcity versus abundance. And I just wanna completely get rid of the idea of scarcity, that like, there are only a certain number of opportunities in the arts for people. And so it's limited to those opportunities or like, this talent level or this experience level. Like, no, art is for everyone. If we wanna create something, we can figure out a way to do it and we can do it.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: And yeah, imposter syndrome is gonna get in our way, but like, the inner demons we can deal with, right? They're really hard to deal with, but we have more control over them than we do over external factors.
Hayley: How can we tell if it's not accurate, like what our demons are saying to us?
Amy: Yeah, we can't, right? I mean, I think it goes back to what we were saying before - about like, okay, this is what my inner demons are saying to me. They're saying, “Amy, you don't know how to write lyrics. You're not good at this. You're never gonna like, finish this show or write this piece in the way that you wanna write it.” This is what my demons are saying to me. Okay, great.
So do I know if that's true? No, I do not. Would the world be an easier place for me if I decided to believe that it wasn't true? Yeah, it really would. So I think if we can't prove it either way, then let's go with the choice that makes life easier for us.
Hayley: I think it is a matter of taking care of yourself to attack those inner demons and relying on your support system and building a healthy support system and you know, not going in it alone and telling yourself that you're not good enough. Because news flash, we're all dealing with it.
Amy: We were talking before about when imposter syndrome is more likely to strike. And I will say that on a very basic level, if I am well rested, if I am eating well and taking care of my body and taking care of my brain and my spirituality… Imposter syndrome still comes, but like, she's a lot more quiet than if I am neglecting any of those things.
Hayley: Yeah, I will just echo what you're saying there. I've developed a really nice morning routine for myself where I do yoga every morning and I journal and spend time with myself.
We talk about love languages. If you don't know, I'll link it in the show notes below, you can take your quiz for love languages and see what you are.
Amy: I've never done that. I'm so excited to learn about it.
Hayley: Well, I'm enlightening Amy for the first time. The love languages are quality time, physical touch, words of affirmation, gifts. Whatever your love languages are, you can actually give those things to yourself.
If you know about yourself that you are a quality time person, spending time alone. Whether you're an introvert or an extrovert or whatever is really important to showing yourself love. If you're a words of affirmation person, you know, writing affirming things to yourself, leaving yourself little love notes. What can you do for yourself? If you're a physical touch person, you do you, you take care of that for yourself too.
Whatever it is, you are creating a practice to support yourself so that you're not just relying on your support system. And I think that those two things together of, like, how do I care for myself actively? Like loving being a verb.
Amy: Loving being a verb. I'm just underlining that for our listeners.
Hayley: Yeah. I know for me, quality time's my thing, but I'm an extrovert. So I spend a lot of time with my friends. And so often, when I'm neglecting my self-care, I forget that I need alone time. Cause I get energy from other people... but I often feel really anxious if I haven't gotten solitude. And it's just really interesting how we don't think of it as something that we can do for ourselves, but we totally can. So that's something that helps me navigate this, although I will say imposter syndrome - it's a big one for me. It's hard.
Amy: Yeah. Well, I mean, we're talking about all these ways to cope with imposter syndrome, which I think is really important. And also, I think a thing that's really helpful is just to acknowledge that it's a thing that we deal with and all of us deal with, and people who are at the peak of their careers are still dealing with imposter syndrome. And if anything, the stakes are maybe higher when you're at that level. Right? Which like, should we all have these problems.
I think it is worth saying and worth remembering that it's something that we all go through. If I'm in an imposter syndrome spiral, a thought that I'll go to is, “Oh my God, I'm the only one who's ever felt this way. Like, I'm this freak, who's trying to do this and who just isn't any good at it.” And being able to remind myself and being able to hear, especially people that I respect and admire, talking about their own struggles with imposter syndrome, it really does help me to feel less alone. And it normalizes it, right? This is not something that's gonna go away when I'm big and famous and on Broadway. Like, imposter syndrome is going to be by my side for my life and my career. So why don't I make friends with it?
Hayley: Well, if you're listening to this, I just wanna say to you, whatever you're working on, whatever you're doing, it is exciting. It is thrilling. It is enough. It is beautiful. Please keep making your thing.
Amy: And we're excited to hear it or to read it or to see it.
Hayley: If you need this today, this is your sign. Take it with you. Don't stop because the world needs to hear your unique voice and what you have to offer. Whether that’s going in and crushing it in the audition room, or the song that you're writing, or you're going to lead a group of actors in a rehearsal tonight, whatever it is, just know that you're enough and this too shall pass. It is just a feeling. And I just wanna say, I love you and I love your work. If you're listening to this.
Amy: I love that. Thank you all so much for joining us for this discussion. Tell us about your experiences with imposter syndrome and some of the ways that you deal with it. If you are so inclined, fill out the form linked in the show notes, send us your thoughts, and your experience and advice could be featured on a future episode of the Women & Theatre Podcast.
Hayley: We love you.
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: And Amy Andrews. If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social at womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show is written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
