S1E6: Marlo Hunter
In this episode, Hayley and Amy speak with director and choreographer Marlo Hunter about advocating for yourself as a parent, practicing a feminism that rejects perfection and embraces mess, and learning how to survive and thrive as a freelance artist. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Guest: Marlo Hunter
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Broadway Women’s Fund: 2022 Women to Watch on Broadway
Watch American Reject on Amazon Prime and Apple+
Dedication by Nicola Kraus
Parent Artist Advocacy League (PAAL) - Learn more about advocating for parents in theatre
Freelance Artist’s Manifesto Boot Camp
Guest Bio
Marlo Hunter (she/her) is a film & TV director, and theater director and choreographer who was recently honored as a “2022 Woman to Watch on Broadway” by the Broadway Women’s Fund. Her feature film directorial debut, American Reject -- a comedy featuring an original soundtrack -- is available on Amazon, Apple +. American Reject stars Kathleen Monteleone (also screenplay), Keala Settle, Annaleigh Ashford, Billy Ray Cyrus, and introduces Angelica Hale (“America’s Got Talent”). The film debuted at festivals in fall 2020 where it garnered multiple honors including Best Narrative Feature -BendFilm Festival. Marlo is currently helming the new musical, Ever After. The show is produced by Tony Award-winner, Kevin McCollum, with Music by Zina Goldrich, Lyrics by Marcy Heisler, and Book by Marcy Heisler & Kate Wetherhead. Upcoming: Streaming release of two episodes Marlo directed for a soon-t0-be-announced Disney TV/ABC project (November 2022). She is in development as director and co-creator of the TV Series, Dedication, with writer Nicola Kraus (“The Nanny Diaries” novel), based on Nicki’s NY Times bestselling novel by the same name.
Select credits: Saved by the Bell: The Musical (director - workshop) with book by series’ creator & EP, Peter Engel. Brad Ellis (“Glee”), Music Director. Director of the unprecedented 9 episode podcast musical, Little Did I Know, released on Apple Podcasts in March 2020. The series was #2 on Apple Podcast’s performing arts charts within 4 days of release. Marlo has directed, choreographed and developed new work at Second Stage, Long Wharf, Williamstown, Roundabout, Playwrights Horizons, EST, Pittsburgh CLO, Bay Street, TUTS Underground, NJ Rep, Bloomington Playwrights Project, NYMF, The Lark at NY Stage & Film, The Orchard Project, and SPACE on Ryder Farm, among others. She is an alumna of the Sundance Theatre Lab, a Drama League residency recipient, an alumna of the Williamstown Theatre Festival Directing Corp, a 2016 National Directors Fellowship Finalist. Marlo was the winner of the 2013 Callaway Award for Excellence in Choreography for Unlock’d, which she directed & choreographed Off-Broadway. She is the Co-Creator & Director of The Theatrical Culinary Project – an immersive theater and dining experience in development putting Top Chef finalist & The Chew Co-Host, Carla Hall, into collaboration with playwrights Martyna Majok (Pulitzer Prize Winner), Jeff Augustin, Daniel Pearle, Harrison David Rivers and Julian Sheppard. Marlo was the Associate Director of the Off-Broadway Clueless musical starring Dove Cameron, and adapted by Amy Heckerling herself for the stage.
In 2008 Marlo founded Eating Their Words, putting playwrights and chefs into collaboration for immersive experiences in New York’s finest restaurants, resulting in World Premiere plays coupled with the menu they inspired. Through ETW Marlo commissioned & directed new plays by Neil LaBute, Beau Willimon, Douglas Carter Beane, Sarah Treem, Theresa Rebeck, Daria Polatin, David Grimm, Annie Baker, Brooke Berman, Amy Herzog, Keith Reddin, Jonathan Marc Sherman, Sam Forman, Rob Ackerman, Steven Levenson, Zakiyyah Alexander, Liz Flahive, Aurin Squire, Aziza Barnes and Eisa Davis.
Marlo teaches a workshop, “The Freelance Artist’s Manifesto Boot Camp” in NYC, at universities, and through private coaching, empowering creative freelancers with mental and practical tools to survive and thrive as an artist. She holds a B.A. in English/Dramatic Literature from Princeton University, and a Classical Diploma (study of Latin & Greek) from Phillips Exeter Academy. She lives in New York with her husband and two children.
Find Marlo Online:
Marlo’s website: www.marlohunter.com
Follow Marlo on Instagram
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, and welcome to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We're your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cup of coffee and join us as we explore the experiences of women and nonbinary people in the theatre industry.
Hayley: On the pod, we interview people from different backgrounds with varying levels of industry experience and professional roles.
Amy: Our goal is to build community, identify the unique benefits that women and nonbinary folks bring to theatrical spaces, and pool our collective wisdom to break down the barriers we continue to face.
(Music)
Amy: In today’s episode, we speak with Marlo Hunter, a film director and theatre director and choreographer who was recently named a “2022 Woman to Watch on Broadway” by the Broadway Women’s Fund. Marlo’s feature film directorial debut, American Reject, is currently available on Amazon and Apple+. Marlo is currently directing two episodes for a Disney TV/ABC project and helming the new musical Ever After which had a New York City workshop in November 2021.
Marlo has directed, choreographed, and developed new plays and musicals throughout her 20-year career. Some of Marlo’s other projects have included the podcast musical Little Did I Know; the Theatrical Culinary Project, an immersive theater and dining experience; and Eating Their Words, a series of collaborations between playwrights and chefs. Marlo also teaches a workshop called The Freelance Artist’s Manifesto Boot Camp, which empowers creative freelancers with mental and practical tools to survive and thrive as artists.
(Music)
Amy: Hello, hello! We are here with the fabulous Marlo Hunter. Could you please introduce yourself, share your pronouns, and tell us a little bit about what you do in theatre?
Marlo: I am Marlo Hunter, she/her. I am a theater director and choreographer and film and TV director.
Hayley: Marlo, could you share a little bit about how you came to the field and your creative work?
Marlo: The short version is that I, you know, grew up very immersed in the performing arts. I danced from the age of two and performed from a young age but knew weirdly at the age of five that I wanted to be a director. Which is a really unusual and sort of esoteric career choice…but the story goes that I saw ET and really wanted to understand who made it.
Directing opportunities in grade school were scarce. So I continued to perform. I went to Stagedoor Manor, I went to a boarding school that had a really robust theatre department. I went to Phillips Exeter, and we had a black box theatre, so I was able to start directing plays in the black box. And then, you know, we weren't allowed to direct on the main stage, but I could choreograph, so I choreographed the musicals and also continued to perform.
Throughout all that time, I really thought I was gonna go into film. I interned on set and in pre-production on the Disney Studio lot for a great producer named Cary Woods, who was one of the biggest producers of the ‘90s. It was a really exciting time. And then I actually had a conversation with a mentor in the film industry who strongly suggested that every artist pursue a liberal arts education. The philosophy being, you know, you have the rest of your life to focus on the craft of the craft, but figure out who you are and what you wanna put in front of that camera and learn everything you can about the things that interest you.
So I went to Princeton, and Princeton didn't have a theatre department, which ended up being a blessing because there was an independent theatre company, Theatre Intime, which had its own theatre. And so I was able to direct five full-scale productions, three of which were musicals, and I choreographed those as well before I graduated, which is a really unusual thing. And then graduated and just didn't ever think about the possibility that it wouldn't be sort of smooth sailing. I just had this idea that I was gonna land in New York and just start directing immediately. And that's not what happened.
Personally, I was battling a lot of things in my life that took a lot of my emotional time and energy. And you know, from an economic standpoint, I also needed to figure out how to support myself. That is when I think I really started to become the person and the artist that I am today. And those, like, fantastic and gritty and disgusting challenges that happened in my 20s that made it not smooth sailing completely shaped who I am and what I do and I wouldn't give it up.
And now, I have found my artistic voice. I know what kind of stories drive me. I am proud to be a comedy director, which is something I shied away from for a long time because I thought that there was a stigma that it meant you weren't as good or you weren't as serious. And there's sort of only a handful of female directors in musical theatre who are comedy directors. And I'm really proud to be among them. And now I live in New York City, I have a husband and two children, and that's where we are.
Hayley: Yeah. Marlo, you said that you feel really strongly about knowing who you are as an artist and what stories you wanna tell. Could you tell us a little bit about what that kind of creative mission is that drives you?
Marlo: I'm really interested in stories, I think I'd call them comedies that are grounded in real emotion. And tonally, like, “sad hilarity” is what I like to call it - comedy that's born from painful circumstance. But really about characters who think that their lives are within their control, only to discover they are actually living in a script that they didn't write. They have to figure out how to take control of their own narrative, ideally in a way that is funny and painful and real, and that can take so many different shapes. I'm really interested in heredity, I'm really interested in the power that we give, what we think we're destined to become. Those stories are interesting to me.
Amy: So what are you excited about that you're working on creatively right now?
Marlo: I just turned in two director's cuts for two episodes, short films, that I directed for Disney TV/ABC. That was a really exciting process for me, and I’ll be able to share that with industry at the end of November.
Hayley: So exciting.
Marlo: But a lot of my time and energy right now is going into a limited series, Dedication, that I've co-created with writer Nicola Kraus, who is the New York Times bestselling author of The Nanny Diaries and 12 other New York Times bestselling novels. We're pitching right now, and I'm really excited about it. I'm really inspired by it. And it's a story that's sort of right in the pocket of what I was discussing, you know?
Hayley: Yeah. Marlo, can you talk a little bit about how you think about balancing your creative life with the rest of your life?
Marlo: You're asking me this at a time when - the month of September was the hardest balance I've experienced. And it was humbling and frustrating, and - I think this is important to say - I can't say I handled it gracefully. It involved a lot of frustration and - never doubt about what I'm doing or what I'm pursuing professionally, but certainly just made me wonder about, you know, being in an industry where not everybody is a parent and what it means to have made that choice and the larger discussion of what that should mean for companies who are employing parents. I obviously believe in doing what we can to make it possible for an artist to work, but also recognizing that like, no one asked me to have children, like it's not somebody else's responsibility that I made a life choice to have children or that I should be treated differently or paid more, even.
But the example of the last month is I had not been aware of specific deadlines I had in post-production for a TV project I was on, and those deadlines were firm. It coincided with the start of the school year. It's one thing to send a kid to school, it's another to have a toddler who's phasing in to preschool for the first time ever. Which means, of course, that I only had childcare for 90 minutes a day. So I got all of this information sort of at the same time and too late to be able to bring in the childcare that I had had. And so honestly, my husband stayed home from work. My husband picked up the slack, my mother-in-law, my sister-in-law, an iPad. I mean, like, you know, the things that you do to try to figure out how to do the work you need to do, but it was incredibly stressful. And I certainly was thinking, you know, I happen to be in a group, for this particular project of directors, I think I am the only parent. And so I was alone, but also feeling like I didn't have a right to my own frustration because it's not the company's problem that this is my life choice. Right? Just like, I wondered where the balance is.
Hayley: Right.
Marlo: This is what their schedule was. It happened to be the worst possible two weeks of the entire academic year. But are they supposed to really base their schedule around, you know, when the people who might have children might not have childcare? No. So, you know, it's one of those things where I tried to not linger in a space of resentment because that's just not helpful. And to really just try and do my best to sort of “ninja” my way into being a focused creative in the windows that I had. Even though I was exhausted, you know, all I wanted to do was my best work.
Amy: It certainly resonates with me as a parent artist. Yeah, it's all of that. It's the guilt about the choices you've made married with an industry that is not set up to accommodate parents in a lot of ways. And like, maybe it doesn't need to be, and also, the work that we do as parents is not just work for us or for our children, it's work for the society. Like, we're literally creating new citizens and raising them to live in community and be in the world.
For me, it also comes down to, like, knowing your worth as an artist and being like, “This is who I am. These are the responsibilities that I have, these are the needs that I have because of those responsibilities. And I think I'm a good enough artist and I bring enough to this project that like, you should accommodate me in the ways that you can,” basically. Which is hard. Which is so hard.
Marlo: It is hard to say, but it's also - sometimes you're asking that of people who - it's not that it's falling on deaf ears, it's falling on an economic structure that's like, okay, what does that mean? So if you take, for example, getting a job at a theatre out of town. You're so excited to have the opportunity, they provide - barely provide you with housing, right? You can ask, “Can you fly my family and could you house my child and a caretaker?” You can ask for it, but their resources are also their resources, right? So you're forced to make the choice. What is important and how can you make it work?
I have a lot of friends who have spouses or partners who are also freelancers. So they'll sort of travel - whoever needs to travel, they travel too. I'm not in that situation. My husband has to go to an office. There is no, like, “Maybe he'll work from wherever I'm gonna be for six weeks.” And personally, I felt that uprooting my kids and bringing them with me was more disruptive to them. My hat is off to people who have made that work. I just always felt that for me, having my kid be with my husband and have a consistency of going to school and coming home to the same bed was really important to me... but it was very hard on me.
We are constantly juggling those emotional sacrifices, in addition to then sitting down and having to go, "Okay, I need to block all of that out." If I don't do the best work I can here, then all of it was for nothing. If I sacrificed all this to sit down and do something half-baked, then what the hell am I doing? Also, in addition to doing all of that, we can't just rest. We have to get our next gig. In September, also in the middle of all of that, was when I had an opportunity to pitch, and I did get it. That was a victory. it feels like more than just like a “yay!”, it's like a victory, because the Jenga of all of it to just be able to put yourself into your work - every time a door opens feels like a victory.
Amy: Yeah, well, the emotional stakes are so high…
Marlo: Yes, I know.
Amy: …for everything for parents. I feel like the last few years have just been such a trial by fire. You know, it just has been wild.
Hayley: Yeah. Well, I was just thinking too, you're also juggling, like, the societal messaging around like, being a mother and then also like, being a woman director. As much as we can all try to condition our brains to not think about those things as much, it’s still there.
Amy: Yeah. And I think in the pandemic especially, we were cut off a lot from our villages of like, how do we raise these children? My experience has been that it's been a piecemeal process of building that back up and figuring out like, okay, how do we make this work now that we can have other support? And it's not just like the two of us raising these children.
Marlo: I applaud the efforts that are being made, you know, especially actors who are - you know, childcare being provided so that they can audition. Those small things actually go a very long way.
Hayley: Mm-hmm.
Marlo: Just the economic structure of theatre in general though is problematic.
Amy: I agree.
Marlo: Problematic for maintaining quality talent.
Amy: Mm-hmm.
Marlo: Yes. I don't know what to say about the shift of that or how the whole model can be restructured. But as of right now, I try to do the best I can, as you said, Amy, to ask for what I need, but also to acknowledge that the answer could be no.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely.
Marlo: To ask for it. Always ask for it. I think that's critical.
Amy: Yeah well, because that way people know. People who aren't parents - like, why would you know? It's such a weird shift in life. I think just making people aware of parents' needs is like, way more than half the battle.
Marlo: Do you want me to give you the best possible work I can? Perhaps we should have a two-day weekend. I remember when I first had my son and I was like, “I need Sunday to be the day off and not Monday.” That was the first thing I remember asking for. It's a family day. I need to be able to have one day where I can see my child. It's a weekend. My husband's not working. I need that day. Monday is not gonna work for me. And that seemed like an easy thing to ask for that was massive for me. That kind of stuff goes a long way. I'm gonna come back in on Monday, and I'm going to be a better director.
Amy: Absolutely.
Hayley: Totally, yeah. It's really hard to set those boundaries, though, as artists, because we're so conditioned to say yes to everything and to be grateful for every opportunity. And so I think like, taking those steps to be like, “This is something that would help me do a better job at that thing that you're paying me to do.” For people out there who struggle with that, try to take those small steps to help yourself, ‘cause I think it makes a difference.
Marlo: Yeah, it does. I pretended I wasn't pregnant with my first pregnancy. Like, I didn't talk about it. I just lived in fear that I was basically gonna vanish from this business. And part of that was self-propagated, and part of it was what I had witnessed, right? I had been in audition rooms watching producers I worked with and general managers I worked with, with the best of intentions, say things like, “She's not available. She just had a baby,” or “She's not available. She's pregnant.” And I would sit there and think, “Has anyone asked this person if actually they're available?” Because, okay, I understand maybe they're having a baby next week. That's one thing. But don't make assumptions about whether this person is ready to work four to six weeks after having a baby. You don't know the answer to that. And let them say no. It's a quick ask. To me, I don't - you're not wasting a whole lot of time.
Hayley: And that's something that only affects people who can get pregnant.
Marlo: That's right. They weren't dismissing the partners who maybe also had to be home and up 24 hours a day to also parent. Just whoever, wherever the baby was gestating, that person. Not available. According to them. So I really sort of just pretended like, it was just like this quick thing. I would like, be right back. I was just gonna real quick have this baby and then come right back and like, nobody would know the difference. And I didn't need anything. And I didn't want anything. And I was the strongest powerhouse woman you've ever seen. I could work through my labor if you needed me to. Truly, a lot of this sounds like a joke, but it wasn't.
Hayley: No, not at all.
Amy: Yeah.
Marlo: And then with my daughter, I was like, “I'm gonna need a chair.” What else am I gonna need? I need meal breaks at these times, you know? Fucking gestational diabetes. And I can't just go, like, I have to take care of myself. And you know what they said? “Okay. Fine, whatever you need.” And I just thought, wow, I could have saved myself a lot of angst if I had just embraced this and trusted that what I have to bring to the table is worth it. That you are hiring me for my talent and for my ability to develop this work or to mount this work - that's it. So like, if you need fuel in the tank, I'm gonna need a KIND bar.
Hayley: Mm-hmm. Which is not a lot to ask for!
Marlo: Learning from that was helpful. I mean, it was such a relief to be able to just say what I needed, all of which seemed like it's within reason, you know, just to be able to do my job.
Hayley: Yep.
Amy: Yeah. On a somewhat related note, let's talk a little bit about womanhood. I'd love to hear from you about what womanhood means to you and how it fits into your identity as a person and an artist.
Marlo: It's an interesting question, because it's a question I don't particularly love. I was never someone who thought about myself in terms of my gender identity. I just thought of myself as an artist, and I realize now of course, that there were things happening. And certainly, even if I wasn't thinking about it, it was impacting me and it was impacting my career trajectory. But I get uncomfortable about placing blame there. I am hesitant to say, “Maybe I would be in XYZ place if I were a man.” Probably. But also, yeah, there's no way to know.
And gosh, I think this particular project, Dedication, is making me think about it a lot. I think a new wave of feminism is happening right now, and I think a lot of that is reflected particularly in TV content and in the work of artists like Phoebe Waller-Bridge and Fleabag and this embracing of mess and the fact that mess and strength are not mutually exclusive.
So I think right now, as a woman, what I'm exploring - especially as a mom to a daughter, which is a new thing for me, my daughter's only two and a half and it's starting to make me think about this in a very different way - this sort of embracing of vulnerability. And that it is okay not to know, and it's also okay not to be the strongest person in every situation all the time. Being the strongest person everywhere doesn't make you a feminist by definition. It is okay to put forth as an identity being messy, and not having all the answers, and sometimes fucking shit up in a way that is so enormous that you're like, “Okay, so this is happening. That happened. So now what do I do with this?”
To me, it's about perspective and the way that you choose to harness all your foibles, past and present, and turn them into strengths by looking at them. Really moving through them and taking responsibility for them. To me, that's what's exciting about work that's out there right now. Shows like Normal People, shows like Fleabag, and I don't know if you watch The Other Two, but like, Heléne Yorke plays this fantastically, like, just a mess. This person is a mess, but she is figuring it out in real time and - not having to apologize for that anymore.
I think that there's like, this impossible standard that we are now supposed to - “Okay. So you don't want us to hold a door for you anymore, so now you're gonna hold all the doors?” No! Some days, I'm gonna hold the door. And then also if you're in front of me, I want you to hold the door for me. Some days, I want you to surprise me with a dinner and take out my chair. And some days, I want to build a castle all by myself. I don't know, like, all of those things are okay. And I think that is a feminism that I wanna be a part of.
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: Yes, please.
Marlo: It's not just a glass ceiling, it's like a glass container, and I'm trying to figure out where the edges are ‘cause I can't see them.
Hayley: Mm-hmm.
Marlo: So like, where are the walls, and how do I crack them and just embrace personhood? That's sort of where I am as a woman right now. And then sexuality is a whole other ball of wax, right? Like, whatever that means. And like, being a sexual person or not being a sexual person or talking about it or not talking about it, or how you show that in storytelling. All of that, I think, is part of this puzzle that we're all exploring. And I'm interested in all of it.
In Dedication, her boyfriend disappeared before prom 1992 and reappeared several years later as the biggest rock star on planet Earth, famous for endless songs about her. But now, Kate Hollis finally has the chance to confront him in their small hometown and claim her future before her unfinished past claims her. What I love about it is - she makes mistakes. She makes a lot of mistakes, and she makes choices that we're like, “Is that what a female protagonist in 2022 is supposed to do?” Are they supposed to make that choice rejecting their friends in favor of trying to rekindle a memory from 12 years ago? Yes!
Hayley: There are people who do it, yeah.
Marlo: ‘Cause you know what? You know who makes those choices? Really strong, really smart women sometimes.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely.
Hayley: Yep. Totally.
Marlo: And that's what I'm interested in exploring is like, we're - it's not about perfection. Or coming outta the gate and being so clear about our boundaries. No one is like that. And we are allowed to be human too. We're allowed to make mistakes just like all the men.
Hayley: It's really about allowing women in storytelling and also in the workplace of storytelling to be full, dynamic people, right? Like, it's about our personhood and not just fitting us into this box of…
Amy: A perfect mold, yeah.
Hayley: Like, in order to play with the boys or whatever.
Amy: Perfection is always a trap, I think, whether it's the perfection of like, the, you know, 1950s housewife ideal or the perfection of like, how to be the “perfect feminist.” The perfect feminist doesn't exist. She's just a person. Right?
Hayley: Yeah, that's right.
Marlo: And I think holding ourselves to that ideal of whatever that means, the strength of it in particular, I think, has gotten us into a new kind of trouble. And then of course, now that's our collective identity. So if we have weakness or if we, you know - whatever it is, however we fumble, then are we feminists anymore?
Hayley: Right. It's like that perfect girl boss with the combat boots who's coming in with her cape, who's not gonna ever cry.
Marlo: I don't, that's just not me. Mistakes are painful, and they have as much power as we give them. But you know, it's about examining why we're giving them the power that we do and how we can write them. Like, constantly just trying to figure out how to look at it from another perspective and use it as a source of strength.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I could listen to you talk about this all day.
Hayley: Yeah. This is awesome.
Amy: It's such a delight.
Hayley: Since we're like, in this womanhood basket of things, can you talk about the perception of you as a woman director in the space? In what ways has that benefited you, and what ways has that limited you potentially?
Marlo: Oh geez. I don't know if I know! The only thing that I can know is, if someone ever says to me, “You've been recommended” or “People have said…,” that's the only time I know. I definitely hold dear that I seem to be someone who is known to have strong relationships with collaborators in development and good relationships with people in production. I think. I hold that very dear. My artistic collaborations are the most important thing to me professionally. I live for it, like that's - that's everything to me. So, you know, hearing that now and again makes me really, really happy.
Hayley: I mean, you are a woman to watch on Broadway this year.
Marlo: I am! And also - talk about kids, this was my favorite thing. So that day that it came out, I was like, really feeling myself. ‘Cause I'm like, you know, you have to celebrate the things that happen. How - this is amazing, like someone wants to watch. Okay, that's amazing. So I pick my son up at school and we're walking out of the yard, and then I'm like, “So guess what? Mommy had a kind of big day today.” He's like, “What happened?” And I'm like, “So I am on this list, which is, you know, kinda a big deal about women to watch on Broadway.” And he was like, “Yeah, but are you like, actually on Broadway, like right now?” (all laugh)
But like, he meant it in the most earnest…
Amy: No, of course.
Hayley: Yeah.
Marlo: “I'm confused about the wording of this.” And I was like, “They're watching me go to Broadway, okay??”
Hayley: “Listen, honey…”
Marlo: Somebody wants to see if I get there, that's all! Takes you right down. But what - where were we?
Hayley: We were talking about your experiences of how your gender has benefited you versus limited you.
Marlo: Recently, I was part of - I got a job where there were several directors. And the producer said - and this was actually said in a way that I did believe it, ‘cause this producer is not an actor - but the producer said, “You know, the directors who are part of this, they are all women this year. But we did not set out to prove a point. We did not set out to hire you because we wanted to fulfill a quota. We really truly were looking for the best directors for the job, and at the end of it realized that we had hired all women.”
It meant a lot to me, because I do get nervous sometimes - and I'm sure that this is a hot topic all over our industry - but like, I'm not crazy about the idea of getting a job because they had to hire someone female-presenting in the room. That does not make me feel great. And I understand that making a push for diversity and inclusion is incredibly important. It is just something for me that I get nervous about, because I wonder, like, “Did you think I was the best person for the job or did you hire me because you're an all-male team?” And then I think immediately, “Who gives a shit?” I have the job, and now my job is to be amazing at it.
There's also plenty of times in this business where you find out or you are aware of the fact that like, you weren't the first hire for that gig. And that also doesn't matter, right? Because the point is that you're there, and it's what you do once you're there that matters. The audience does not come into the theater, and the ushers aren't like, “Enjoy tonight. By the way, this director was not the first pick. Hopefully you enjoy it. She was called after the first director had to go direct a Broadway show…” You know, that's not what's happening, right? So if all that matters is the work that you put out, I deal with it by going, “Okay, well, I mean, the point though is that I'm in the room and I'm in the space.” Whether or not it was because they truly thought I was best for the job or because I was best at the job as a she/her - okay, I'm here.
Hayley: Yeah, it's an interesting conundrum because of how male-dominated the industry has been and understanding - like you said, the important push for diversity and inclusion and also the like, brain fuck, for lack of a better word - that that does where you're like going in going, “Am I actually here because of me, or am I here because of, like you said, filling a quota?”
Marlo: And it doesn't matter. Because even if you're not, you have to have faith in your own talent, in your own voice, right? So however you got into that chair - the only thing I hope, of course, is that nothing was done in a way that was unethical. I am personally not comfortable with someone being asked to like, move aside to make room for me just because I identify as a woman. I know people who are comfortable with that and do think that's what should be happening for them. I can't comment on what's happening for anyone else, but for myself, I think I would be uncomfortable with that. If that person was doing a wonderful job already on a project, you know?
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: What are you most proud of in your life and in your work?
Marlo: Surviving. I think being here still, having been in this business now for over 20 years, and just feeling like I'm hitting my stride, and doing that while trying to raise two human beings who I hope are great contributions to society themselves. I'm really proud of being in a place as a person with a degree of empathy that, by all accounts, based on where I came from, I really shouldn't have. It's not the hard wiring I was given, it's not how I was raised. So to have done some really soul-sucking work on myself as a person, to have created and built the life that I have right now - I'm really proud of that. It's what defines me and shapes my work as an artist and my work as a parent.
I'm really, really excited to just be getting started. I really feel like I'm just getting started. So, it's an exciting time, and yeah, and I like to try to keep sight of the work that I've done, the hard stuff. The really hard stuff that has nothing to do with staging something.
Amy: We think it's amazing all the things that you're doing, and we're very excited for what's gonna come next for you. And we are watching you go all the way to Broadway.
Marlo: Oh, thank you. Broadway is not the end all, be all mark of success. But it is the biggest and loudest theatrical stage, and to reach that many people is a goal of mine. But I'm so excited for both of you and I love what you're doing.
Hayley: Thank you.
Marlo: And thank you for your support of FAM too.
Amy: Do you wanna just talk a little bit about what FAM is for our listeners?
Marlo: Well in 2009, when the economy just tanked, I realized that not only did I not have, like, any kind of creative gig, but I also didn't have a supplemental income J-O-B. I didn't have anything. And I was just sitting there thinking like, “How do I make use of this time? What am I supposed to do with myself? I feel so useless and also panic-stricken.” And then I thought, “I just wish that, like, somebody had written down all of these things that I've been told and that I've learned as a freelance artist, but like, nobody told me before I got here.” And if somebody had just said this to me, I think actually, all of it might have been more tenable. And then I was like, “Well, I have some time.”
So I sat down, and in a week, I wrote what was then a book - and could still be a book! - and sent it out to artist friends. And within three weeks, I had a group of artists from all disciplines in my living room doing what was the beginning of an 8-week workshop to empower artists with the mental and practical tools to survive and thrive as a freelancer. The first four weeks of - we call it FAM, the Freelance Artist’s Manifesto Boot Camp - the first four weeks are just about your mind. Anything and everything you could imagine about shifting your perspective and harnessing your creative energy and understanding what instinct is and all of these skills you need as a person to be able to create a sense of resilience and to really start to dig into that self-doubt. Where is it coming from? Why is it there? And why are you giving it so much power?
And then the back half of the course, the last four weeks, are these practical tools, right? Everything about taxes and supporting yourself - ideally through multiple streams of income that are somehow tangentially related to what you love in an ideal world, but sometimes they’re not, and that's okay too. And making a home space and what it means to be an entrepreneur and a business owner, which you inherently are as a freelancer. So all of these things in one course.
And part of it is the creation of a life map, which is a very special document that changes constantly but gives you a sense of direction. And hopefully, all of these exercises really teach people how to shift their perspective in an industry that is always going to be circuitous, a life path that is never gonna look like our civilian corporate lifestyle. It's just not. And that means that we have to understand it even more than they do, because we can't outsource to an HR department. We can't outsource to a boss, we are our own boss. We can't outsource to a creative marketing team, we are the creative marketing team. And so a lot of that too is - not about changing or eliminating the things that are unavoidable, like self-promotion and marketing and networking, but shifting our perspective on them and our relationship with them so that we can better embrace what is a necessary part of being a freelancer. And every single person should have to take this class.
Amy: I agree. Taking your class at the beginning of my journey as an artist was like, it was the most valuable thing. I would not be where I am today, I would not be going where I'm going, if it was not for your class.
Marlo: Oh my goodness. That is so nice to hear. I'm so glad. I'm so glad.
Hayley: I tell every one of my friends to find you when they're struggling with self-doubt.
Marlo: Oh, that's so amazing to hear. And I will say too, the course itself saves me because every time - it's somehow weird that, like, every time I'm about to do it, I'm like, “How can I teach this?” I'm literally, it was just yesterday in tears over this rejection, and then I'm like, “No, that's exactly why you can teach it.” You're not ever Buddha. You're not ever on the other side of this - it's up and down constantly. That's the point. And the point is that, in teaching others too, it helps me to reconnect with these exercises and to reconnect with why we're doing this. And if it is something that you truly want to do, then everyone should be able to do it. And I never talk about talent, ‘cause that's none of my business, and frankly…
Amy: It doesn't matter.
Marlo: …really not anything that keeps people in the game at the end of the day, so yeah.
Hayley: Amazing. Marlo, can you tell our listeners where they can find you on the interwebs?
Marlo: Yes, the interwebs. You can find me at www.marlohunter.com, and that connects to everything. Including FAM, by the way, under my coaching tab.
Hayley: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.
Amy: Thank you so much.
Marlo: Thank you both. I'm so excited for you, and let me know if you need anything else!
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: And Amy Andrews. If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show is written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
