S2E8: Networking
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk about the joys and challenges of networking and how it plays out in the theatre industry, especially for women and other underrepresented groups. We share tips and resources for improving networking skills and celebrate the fact that networking is a skill that continues to be developed over a lifetime. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
Stage Directors and Choreographers Society (SDC)
Thanks for listening!
Who do you want to hear from next on the Women & Theatre Podcast? Nominate someone here.
The Women & Theatre Podcast is created and produced by Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews. Please like, comment, subscribe, follow us on Instagram and Facebook, and consider making a donation to support our work. Thank you for listening!
Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, and welcome to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We're your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cup of coffee and join us as we talk to people in the theatre industry about their experiences with womanhood.
Hayley: On the pod, we interview people with different gender identities, from different backgrounds, with varying levels of industry experience and professional roles.
Amy: Our goal is to build community and pool our collective wisdom to break down the barriers we continue to face.
(Music)
Amy: Hello, beautiful people and welcome to the Women & Theatre Podcast. Today, Hayley and I are chatting about the very important topic of networking. Hayley, can you kick us off by talking about why you think networking is important in the theatre industry?
Hayley: Yes, absolutely. A lot of people will say, “It's all about who you know.” And while I believe that there's a lot of things that go into a successful career in the theatre, I do believe that the foundation of your success in this business is sort of dictated by your relationships. That's why I think that networking is such an important thing to talk about.
Amy: I totally agree with you. Why do you think so many people in the theatre industry see networking as a challenge?
Hayley: I think it's something that scares a lot of people and is often wrapped up with a lot of shame. I think it's very helpful to think about it as this thing that you get to do. You get to build your community. You get to meet other people who are passionate about the thing that you are passionate about. But it's absolutely something that can intimidate people, because it's like - if I don't know the right people, how am I ever gonna make a career in this?
Amy: Yeah, I think a thing that is hard to see early on when you're first getting started, and kind of comes later, is that the joy of networking is that you get to pick your people. You get to pick the people who you follow up with and you say, “This is a person that I really want to have a professional relationship with.” And so you get to fill your community with people who share the same values as you do, people who are working on the same kinds of projects or have a similar aesthetic, or who you just vibe with them really well. Those people are the best people!
Hayley: They are. I mean, that's how we found each other, right?
Amy: Yeah, oh my god, 100%! There's a networking example right there.
Hayley: There you go.
Amy: Just slide into the DMs in a Zoom class. Not in a creepy way, though.
Hayley: Totally! (laughter)
Amy: I find that a thing that takes the pressure off of networking for me is to just think of it as making friends. And think of it more generally, like, “I don't have a specific ask for you right now. I just - I like who you are and I wanna like, get to know you better and know what you're working on. Let's stay in touch.”
Hayley: It's like dating, guys.
Amy: It's just like dating.
Hayley: If you go on a first date with someone, and immediately they're asking you like, if you want 14 kids…
Amy: I have been on that first date.
Hayley: Right! A lot of people have, it's not fun. If the person immediately starts interrogating, it can often turn people off, right? So that's also a turnoff in networking. Genuinely ask questions about the person and like, get to know them. We want to think about relationships as not being transactional but as an investment. So Amy, what are some of the things that excite you about networking?
Amy: I find it exciting to think about networking as a two-way street. So it's not just about how you can help me, but it's also about how can I help you? We all have skills we can share and people we know that other people don't know that we could connect.
Hayley: One of the most joyful things about networking is connecting people that you love with other people that can help them.
Amy: Literally one of my favorite things in the world to do. I love nothing more than to talk to someone and I'm like, “I'm really struggling with this problem.” And the person is like, “I know someone who's working on the same thing!” Or like, “Oh, you should talk to this person!” Those are the people who you wanna keep around.
Hayley: I think it's fun to find the people that are like-minded, share your values, speak your name in other rooms, you can speak their name. It's good for everybody.
Amy: Hayley, what do you think makes networking particularly challenging for women, nonbinary folks, and people from other underrepresented communities?
Hayley: I think for women and nonbinary folks specifically, we have been gate-keeped out of a lot of theatrical spaces. If you're looking around a room and you're like, “I don't belong here, there's no one who looks like me,” that can definitely be stressful.
Amy: In conversations about diversity and equity and inclusion, people talk about pipelines a lot. The fact of the matter is that theatre has long, long been an old boys’ club industry in which there are straight cis white men who look around for someone to become their mentee, their apprentice. And when they're looking around, they pick people who remind them of themselves - as we all do, honestly. And so they pick other straight cis white men to mentor, and the cycle continues. That's definitely part of the issue. And I think there's also a lot more to that conversation.
For better or worse, the theatre industry operates in a different way than, say, corporate culture. It is a very relationship-based industry. Within a production, there may be a clearly defined hierarchy, but within the industry, things are much less clearly defined. If I'm trying to hire an assistant or associate or hire someone for a particular role, I'm not necessarily putting out a job posting and interviewing people. I'm more likely to be asking my contacts and saying, “Who do you know who would be great for this? Who do you know who would be interested?” And that comes back to what you were saying, Hayley, about speaking names into rooms, your own and your friends’.
Hayley: Totally.
Amy: ‘Cause that's how we lift each other up. And I think people who are not straight cis white men who do get into rooms can be looking for the opportunities to mentor people who are coming up, who are struggling for opportunities in the same way that you did, perhaps.
Hayley: We forget that we have value too, and we have our own power and our own connections that we can bring to the space. And even if you're new to whatever city you're in and you're trying to build relationships with people, there are people who will sit down with you. And yes, there will be those people who just don't respond to your email. There will be people who are too busy or don't want to take the time…
Amy: There will also be times when you reach out to someone and don't hear back and assume that your email got lost, and then seven years later get a random email from them saying, “Hey, are you still interested in things?”
Hayley: That's happened to me so many times. You just never know.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Amy, do you have any tips or things that have helped you along your way as you build your network?
Amy: The most important thing to know about networking is that you have all the skills you need inside your body. Very few people are born innately knowing how to play music or write music or direct a show or design lighting or costumes.
Hayley: Yeah, those are like hard skills as opposed to soft skills.
Amy: Those are things that, yeah, maybe you have to apprentice or maybe you have to go to school for it. But networking - it's just talking to people. And we all talk to people, we talk to people all the time. So it's just a matter of looking at the ways you talk to people. I think it's important to start at the ground level knowing that you already have the skills that you need to be an excellent networker.
Hayley: Yeah, I love that as something to take away some of that fear stuff. If you're somebody who's socially anxious, start small. You don't have to push yourself to speak to every single person and make sure every single person knows who you are.
Amy: Yeah. I think the best way to get better at networking is to practice. In terms of getting rid of the fear, the more you do it, the more comfortable you get with it. And at the same time, the more you do it, the more people you know who can introduce you to other people. It feels worlds more comfortable to have a friend introducing you to someone than to, like, cold introduce yourself.
Hayley: Well, that actually leads to my next point, which is bring a buddy.
Amy: Bring a buddy!
Hayley: You don't have to do this alone. I was at the NAMT conference this year. I would pick a friend and I'd be like, “Come with me. We're gonna go speak to people.” My friend would be like, “Oh, I know this person.” And I'd be like, “Great, can you introduce me?” And then I was like, “I know this person,” and I could introduce them. And then we just started building it out that way, and it was much more natural.
Amy: I think that's another good point and tip about networking. In an ideal world, you want it to feel natural. It doesn't always feel natural, especially at first if it's a skill that you're not used to using and that you’re still working on.
Hayley: That’s okay.
Amy: Right. It's totally fine for it not to feel natural, but just - I guess have in the back of your mind that that's the ultimate goal, is that it's just having a conversation. You don't necessarily want to be pushing your project or even yourself.
Hayley: I think a big skill to work on when it comes to networking is active listening. Pay attention when people are talking about what they are looking for and what they are building.
Amy: When I'm in a networking conversation, if I wanna keep the conversation going, I'm gonna be asking questions about the other person. I'm not gonna be sharing more information about myself. If the conversation is faltering, then I'm gonna say, like, “Oh, well what are you working on right now? What theatre have you seen lately that really excites you,” you know?
Hayley: Totally, yeah. In terms of things that you can do to prepare for these settings, come up with a list of questions. Having a couple of questions in your mind that you would wanna be asked about your work or your stuff is a really fun thing to do. People love to talk about themselves.
Amy: Especially in theater, people love to talk about themselves!
Hayley: I also like to have my 30-second elevator, like, “who I am and what I do” thing at my fingertips. You know yourself. If you're the type of person who just really enjoys talking to people, you probably don't need to prep this. But for people who get more nervous, if you wanna be like, “Okay, I am so-and-so, the hats that I wear in the industry, this is where I'm from. This is a project or the type of work that I'm interested in…” Like, some kind of a creative mission statement, and then maybe a fun fact about you or something that you can throw in there.
Amy: And I think even if you are a person who's comfortable talking to people, it's always good to practice and outline out - if not script out - your 30-second spiel introduction, and just have that ready to go. And not even for people in the industry, but for people outside the industry. I mean, you and I are both writers, and we very much need to talk with folks outside the industry to get money for our projects, to get support for our projects, connect with people who can help us make our projects a reality. And having that 30-second elevator pitch is also important for those conversations.
Hayley: It kind of breaks the ice too, to have that ready.
Amy: One of the scariest things for me about networking is having someone say, “Tell me about yourself,” and not having an answer ready to go.
Hayley: Oh my gosh, yeah.
Amy: If I have my 30-second intro ready to go, then I can take in that question and say, “Absolutely!”
Hayley: Another hot tip: People love to connect over values and passion. In my experience, when I'm like, “Tell me what you love. Tell me what you're passionate about,” people get really excited. It just kind of takes the pressure off if you don't use interviewee language to talk to somebody. I love to say, “Tell me your life story.” And then it makes them think a little bit and be actively present in the conversation. I'll be like, “Who are you? Tell me everything.” Then they can choose what they wanna share.
Amy: Well, that's what's fun about those questions is that it lets people define their own story, and it's so rare in our lives that people let us define our own story, you know?
Hayley: Exactly.
Amy: So that's really exciting.
Hayley: Also, find a point of connection. That's another thing I always say.
Amy: Oh, absolutely.
Hayley: If somebody's like, “Oh, I'm from California,” and you're from California, you could be like, “Oh my gosh, me too. Where'd you go to school?” Like those questions…
Amy: Talk geography. It's okay.
Hayley: Talk geography.
Amy: Here's another good tip. If you are nervous about being on the spot in networking situations, practice networking outside of networking situations. Get a friend or two friends, go out for a drink, for a coffee, and pretend that your friend is a person that you want to have a conversation with in the industry, and ask them to role play with you. I am a huge fan of taking things that are stressful out of the stressful situation and practicing them in a safe space. ‘Cause it really does help. And that way you can get feedback from your friend too, about what's working and what's not in a way that you can't really in real life. ‘Cause you can't really network with someone and then be like, “So how was that for you?”
Hayley: Correct.
Amy: Don't do that. (laughter)
Hayley: This is something that I wish people told early-career people more, but network with the people that are at your level.
Amy: Mm, that's a good one.
Hayley: I mean, “level” is sort of reductive, it's viewing it as hierarchical. But if you're an early-career writer, find the other early-career writers. I think people often make the mistake of going, “Oh, I need to go talk to that big-wig producer right away.” Oftentimes, the people who share your same hat - building those relationships are really great. Let's say someone is offered a commission that they can't take. They have a list of friends that they know who they could pass names off of to. I can't even tell you how many times, as a director, another director has not been able to take a job and then passed my name along. Referrals are half of how you get your jobs in theatre.
Amy: And if you look at people who are at the top of their game in the theatre industry, and you look at who they're friends with, it's all people who came up together and shared opportunities with one another and worked together on things. It's a lot more rare to see someone who is really experienced and someone who is less experienced…
Hayley: Collaborating?
Amy: Yeah, collaborating. Exactly. Because the other thing is that the people who are at a similar experience level as you, they have similar struggles that they're dealing with. So you can commiserate together, you can help each other out. That's all really valuable stuff, not just for getting ahead professionally, but also for taking care of yourself.
Hayley: And also for like, dealing with the imposter syndrome we always talk about. For all those things. For going to stuff with - go see your friends’ shows!
Amy: Yes! You never know who you’ll meet.
Hayley: Go make friends with your friends’ friends. You also don't know who your friends know a lot of the time. People feel really awkward sometimes talking about their connections, people get judgmental, people get weird…
Amy: And there are definitely ways to name-drop that are like… We all know those people who are like, “Oh, well, I was just having coffee with Liza Minelli the other day…”
Hayley: Totally. Don't be afraid to send a cold email. If nobody's told you this yet - if people's emails are accessible on the internet, so long as you're polite and professional and brief, people generally don't mind receiving a cold email. Again - brief, professional, kind, respectful. But do it.
Amy: So what are some resources folks can use to grow their networks?
Hayley: If you're a director, SDC - whether you're a member or not - has some awesome virtual networking spaces.
Amy: As do a lot of the affinity groups - Maestra, MUSE, Ring of Keys, they all do. I also highly recommend, if it's within your budget, taking online classes in whatever your discipline is. Or in-person classes, if that's doable for you. It's a great way to network with people, again, who are at your experience level and working on the same things you are.
Hayley: Going to shows, if it's in your budget. Go introduce yourself to people, go support other creators of theatre in those spaces. The nice thing about going to a cabaret or something is that it's a very networking friendly space. People hang out and talk to each other afterwards. It's not weird to go up and introduce yourself after a show or something.
Amy: Yeah. And you know what? Find your people and hold onto them. Follow up.
Hayley: Yes! And ask your friends who they know.
Amy: Develop those friendships, and then use those friendships to network together. Don't do it alone.
Hayley: Yeah. And make your career goals known to the people that are in your support groups and in your community.
Amy: To clarify, I think there's a difference between talking to a specific person, saying, “I wanna direct this show for you,” like as a specific ask…
Hayley: Yeah, that's different.
Amy: …versus putting out into your community, “Hey, I'm really looking to direct shows that are like this in spaces like this with this kind of people.” And that way, other people can be looking for opportunities for you at the same time as you’re looking for opportunities for them. And that's where the beauty of community in the theatre industry really comes into play.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Hayley, one thing that I really want our listeners to take away from this conversation is that networking is a skill that takes continuous work and continuous improvement over your life and over your career. So I would love to know from you, what is a networking skill that you are working on improving right now?
Hayley: That's such a great question. I think just not being so scared to go up to somebody that I don't know and talk to them. I'm a pretty outgoing person, but I get really socially anxious in environments where there are a lot of people who are at a different level of the industry than me, and I start to get imposter syndrome, like, “What value could I possibly provide to these people?” And so that's one of the reasons I say it's useful to network with people in the same general career sphere as you. But I do think it would be valuable for me to work on my confidence when it comes to that, because I do have things to offer and I do have value to provide someone.
I'm also working on defining my artist statement so that I can explain it quickly to people. I'm still kind of trying to piece together the wording to express, like, “These are my values as a person and an artist.” How to define the story of Hayley, if that makes sense.
Amy: Yeah! The thing I am learning…rediscovering…learning again every couple of years, is that it changes. It's not like I just do my 30-second, “This is who I am” intro, and then it's that for the rest of my life. It changes every six months, every year, every couple of years, you know? And so a thing that I aspire to do, and that I'm going to do, is to put regular check-ins on my calendar with myself to update the language that I use for how I talk about myself.
Hayley: You could do this with your friends. You can ask for data.
Amy: Absolutely. I love the idea of thinking of your friends as resources in improving your networking skills.
Hayley: How about you? What is something you're working on?
Amy: It's funny because I became a parent a year and a half before the pandemic. And while I was a new parent and during the pandemic, I got really, really good at networking over email and over the phone and over Zoom. And I really just wasn't in physical spaces with other people for a really long time. And now that those in-person networking events are starting to come back, I'm finding that I really need to brush up on my in-person networking skills. I've been just sitting in my house for the last few years and like, completely forgetting how to be a person in the company of other people.
Hayley: Totally.
Amy: So that's what I'm working on right now, is transferring the networking skills that I know that I have to in-person settings where I'm working on getting more comfortable.
Hayley, what's the big takeaway that you're hoping that people will learn about networking from this episode?
Hayley: It's about making friends and connecting your favorite people together. And don't view relationships as transactional. Those are my two big things. Think of relationships as relationships, whether they're business or personal, they’re relationships. If you wouldn't treat your friend - or partner or whatever - that way, don't do it in a business setting.
Amy: That's a good takeaway! Come to networking as your authentic, true human self, hoping to make an authentic human connection with another true human person.
Hayley: Yeah, I love that.
Amy: I think the biggest takeaway that I want people to get from this conversation is - I'm not gonna say networking isn't scary. Networking can be really scary, and I think it's okay to acknowledge that it can be scary. And I just want to encourage people to use your resources to take the pressure off of it, and do what you need to do to make yourself more comfortable in networking situations. Whether that's bringing a friend, whether that's practicing beforehand, whether that's making a list of all of the things that are awesome about you and that people should want to know you because XYZ... Doing what you need to do to make networking a more comfortable thing for you. Because it's necessary, right? It is very much how the industry functions, and so, let's make it fun for ourselves.
Hayley: Totally.
Amy: Happy networking to all of you! You can do it!
Hayley: And also, let us know how we can help. Let us know if this was helpful for you, if you have other questions, if there are things that are on your mind about networking. We'd love to hear from you!
Amy: Tell us your networking successes, tell us the challenges you're facing. We're all in this together, so let's build a community.
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: And Amy Andrews. If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show is written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
