S1E9: Producibility
In this episode, Hayley and Amy discuss the concept of producibility. What are the myths and stories we’ve been told about what makes a show producible? What kinds of shows would we like to see produced? And how does all of that fit into the current state of theatre finances? We start to answer some of these questions and offer ideas about how we can innovate and make bold choices as an industry. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Music: Chloe Geller
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, and welcome to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We're your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cup of coffee and join us as we explore the experiences of women and nonbinary people in the theatre industry.
Hayley: On the pod, we interview people from different backgrounds with varying levels of industry experience and professional roles.
Amy: Our goal is to build community, identify the unique benefits that women and nonbinary folks bring to theatrical spaces, and pool our collective wisdom to break down the barriers we continue to face.
(Music)
Amy: Welcome to the Women & Theater Podcast. Today, we are talking about producibility. We're gonna talk about what makes a show "producible", what messages we hear in the industry about what makes a show producible, and maybe push back on some of those messages and start to challenge the ideas of what shows are being produced, what kind of shows we'd like to see produced, and how all of that fits into the current finances of theater and what we hope to see in the future. Hey Hayley, I'm excited to have this chat with you!
Hayley: I'm always excited to talk to you. I'm very excited to talk about this topic because it's been so resonant in the conversations I've been having with my collaborators as I'm planning what my next projects are. So we wanna talk about some myths around producibility and unpack some of those things. So what are some common stories that you've heard in the industry about what makes something producible?
Amy: Well, I think a thing that's really interesting that I've heard a lot as a writer, and then also in my work as a dramaturg and a producer, is the focus on keeping things small, keeping theatre pieces small. So that they're able to be done, you know, with a small cast, with minimal set, minimal props, minimal costumes...
Hayley: That's a big one. Yeah.
Amy: Yeah. On the same lines, keeping pieces flexible too, so that they can be scaled to whatever budget you're working with. Like, if you're doing a scrappy, staged reading on your own, then it can be this size. Or if you are in a festival and have a little budget or are working with a regional nonprofit and have a little budget, then it can get a little bigger. But just the idea that the finances so dictate the logistics of theatrical pieces. But then on the other hand, it's musical theatre! Like, it's inherently a big art form, right? So I get that, and I also wonder what we lose through this huge focus on keeping pieces small. I feel like a big piece that's lost in the conversation is imagination and the willing suspension of disbelief that comes with being in a theatre audience.
Hayley: Yeah. I was also just thinking about ensembles, and how dance has taken a backseat in more modern musical theatre. And I mean, that doesn't apply to everything. Sure, you have casts like Hamilton, which have a lot of dancers. But there's a focus on the chamber musical, right? Which has like, five or six people, it's largely a unit set, like you said. And it seems like we are not wanting to spend as much money on humans as we were before. So that was a thought I had, was just about the idea of an ensemble taking a backseat, and what that means for what's possible.
Amy: Well, and what it means for the modes of storytelling that we're using. The ensemble historically has been a really important storytelling mechanism in musical theatre in a really exciting, genre-defining kind of way. I think there are a lot of things in musical theatre that have been shifting in recent years. And that's a big one. And it's interesting from a financial perspective that you say that…and I agree with you. When I see shows today, I'm often surprised at like, wow, a lot of that budget was allocated to projections…
Hayley: I was thinking about that, too. I think from the onset of the mega-musical, it seems like we've slowly but surely been taking this journey towards putting more and more money into things that may or may not be... yeah, the most imaginative way of approaching things. Not that there's anything wrong with projections.
Amy: No. And there's not, and I've seen projections used to stunning effect in shows. And it can be a really useful storytelling mechanism, but for me, what originally drew me to musical theatre was the people. It feels connected to this long historical tradition of people sitting around telling stories to one another in creative, imaginative ways. And that's really exciting to me.
And what's interesting is that, in talking to other producers in this space - even though the amount of tech has just ballooned in the last decade or two, the costs of theatre are still, the biggest cost is personnel because it just takes so many freaking people to put on a show. Which is another thing that's beautiful about musical theatre. And also a thing that's really challenging when it comes to talking about producibility.
Hayley: I'm not a producer. So I will be very transparent in that. And I am still learning about how all the finances work, but from my perspective, I don't see the personnel costs as being something that goes away. And we do not wanna be paying people less in order to accommodate creating this art. So, you know, the question is how can we bring in more money, more abundance? And also, how can we reduce costs elsewhere? Where are the other places that, actually, reduction can happen?
Amy: And I should say, I’m not a big Broadway producer. I’m learning right along with you and with the rest of our listeners. So we are all in process. I think it's a matter of yes, bringing in more money. A hundred percent. And a thing that excites me about theater finances is finding creative ways of financing theater. ‘Cause I think there are a lot of untapped resources.
Hayley: There's so much red tape and gatekeeping, from what I can tell, around how a show gets made. And the fact of the matter is that, in talking to producers, every show's journey is different. So it's weird that there's this idea that “This is how it's done.” When in fact, every show that has made it out to people, whatever that means…Every show has a different journey and a different path, like every artist in this industry has a different journey and a different path. So it's just interesting that the myth persists.
Amy: Yeah. Well, and I think that the shows that have done so the most successfully – that have found their money and found their support and found their audience – are the ones that have really leaned into the values of the show. Like, the people who are making the show, what their personal values are - and also the values that are being communicated in the show.
Like... like Come From Away, which really found its audience and really found this sweet spot of “We are telling a story of people taking care of people.” That is going to be reflected in every aspect. lf you think of a show as a company, which it is - like, once you get to a certain level with a show, the next step is that you form a business entity that is that show, and that's what drives the finances of it throughout its journey. But if you think of it as a company, the core values of that company are - people taking care of people, comforting the stranger, being in community, what it means to live in community and to take care of everyone in our community, right? Those values were mirrored in everything that they have done and continue to do.
And that kind of values alignment is a piece that I think is, unfortunately, missing from a lot of producing conversations around shows. So when you and I are talking about, okay, in putting together budgets for shows, what costs can we reduce or what new sources of revenue can we have such that we can pay every person involved with the show what they're worth - I think that is a reflection of our values and the ways in which you and I wanna make theatre.
Hayley: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's a really good point too, that ideally, as individuals, we're making choices based on our values system. And so if you align that with a theatre entity, the thing that we're trying to make should also reflect how we're making it. And content should dictate form in that way as well - not just in the creation of the theatre piece, but also in how it is disseminated to people and how it moves forward and has a life beyond the initial creation.
I just wanted to bring up another myth, which is this idea that big IP [intellectual property] needs to be attached to a show in order for it to be successful. And this one I feel really passionately about as a writer because it's scary to me as a writer. The reason that I feel like we're seeing so many movie adaptations and so many jukebox musicals is that there's so much emphasis on money already being there by somebody's name being attached. My personal interest is theatre that makes social change. I want theatre to make people feel seen and understood. And I want people to think about their humanity when they leave the building and take small steps towards creating a better world because of theatre.
Amy: Yeah, theatre that moves the culture forward.
Hayley: Exactly. I think what we need from producers is for them to invest in new storytellers and in new stories. And it's all about the relationship with risk. And we talk about this all the time, Amy, but in order for us to have theatre that is not just talking about change, but actually doing the work that we want it to do, we have to take some risk and invest in people on their creative journeys. Because the new voices of the generation that we actually need don't necessarily have the access or the resources or the name yet.
And so, I think that that's the big change that I wanna see in this conversation of producibility, is I want people to invest in really good storytellers and people who have a lot to say. It may not be the most polished version of the thing yet - or it might be, it might be someone who's really talented and it is really polished, but they just don't have a name yet. Regardless, I think we need both.
I think we need more incubators where there are spaces for creators to make mistakes and to grow and to learn and to change in a safe environment that also allows people to actually put something up. Because there's no awareness of what's gonna work truly until there are lights and costumes on the thing. You can workshop something to death, and then it goes to Broadway and it flops. You don't really know. So I think we need…that's one thought is we need incubators. And for people to be willing to take a risk on a really good story and a really good creator that no one's heard of.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think unfortunately, it is really, really expensive to produce a musical - more expensive than it has been in the past. And producers are really risk-averse. And we've talked in previous interviews about how we, as a society, have become very risk-averse, probably in part because of the pandemic. And it's funny, I was talking with a mentor recently. She teaches vocal pedagogy, and she was talking about working with her students and how things have changed in academia. The thing that she said that really stuck with me is that she's been working with a lot of students who will say, like, “I don't want to do this because it makes me uncomfortable, or it's scary.” And she will say to them, “Theatre is inherently risky. You don't go into the arts because you wanna stay in your comfort zone.”
And I think that's a piece that's often missing from the conversation is - like, I don't want you to invest in my work because you think it's a sure thing. I want you to invest in my work because you think the work is worthy and has value and because you want to support it. Not in a like, "This is attached to an IP that everyone already knows and loves, so of course it has a built-in audience." But you believe in it as in, “This is the kind of work I think there should be more of in the world. And so I'm going to put my money where my heart is.” That kind of investing is risky. You might lose money.
As a beginning producer, the thing that I have heard and heard and heard from producing mentors is that you don't invest in a show thinking you're gonna make money in it. When you put that money in, you treat that money as gone. If you recoup it, great! Fringe benefit! But you've got to invest in work that you believe in, because theatre does not recoup investment very often. I think it's like 20% of Broadway shows recoup their investment.
Hayley: I just wanted to address the idea of uncomfortability. It's interesting because we are hearing a lot of conversations about safe spaces right now. And I myself am a big advocate of safe spaces. I think Kate Wetherhead talked to me about this once, but the two of us are aligned in our opinion on this, which is that the safe space is created to do risky work. And I think that that's the part that is not often clarified and that has gotten a little bit lost in the conversation. In order to make work that is really incredible, there has to be some kind of risky quality... And I wish we had a different word, because what we don't mean by risk is damaging someone's emotional safety or exploiting their trauma. But we do mean making big, bold choices in the space, and doing things…
Amy: Right, doing things that maybe haven't been done before. In society in general, and in the arts in particular, I think that if we ever get into a feeling of, “This is the way it's done, this is the way it's always been done,” that means it's dead. We have nowhere to go. We're not innovating, we're not moving forward, we're just staying in the same place. With producing especially, and with the financial side of theatre, I think we have been stagnating quite a bit, and there is a need to shake things up and to change up our approach to things.
Hayley: We're in a time that is so fraught right now. I've heard some mentors refer to it as the “wild west”, because the necessity for change has become so clear, AND nobody knows what to do. And necessity needs to be the mother of invention right now. Society as a whole is not valuing theatre, first of all. And then, the people in theatre are not being valued and treated properly. And that's a big, broad strokes, blanket statement. But in general, that is the issue, right? And so I think we need to see bold choices. We need to see innovation.
Amy: Well, and talk about risk! The idea - I mean, just what you said…there's this problem, there's all of this change that needs to happen, and we don't know how to do it. And so I feel like a lot of people are spinning their wheels. This is the time for big, bold choices. This is the time for us to try things. And if they don't work, say, okay, that didn't work, let's try something else. And it's hard because we also are in a society right now that is so averse to failure, does not allow room for people to fail and learn from their failures.
So, Hayley, as a writer, how does thinking about producibility affect your work? How does that come up in your process?
Hayley: Yeah, I have two separate thoughts about this. One is the myth that you brought up, which is the idea of how small things need to be... but I don't necessarily find that limiting. I find that those constraints are actually very helpful in my creativity. So that is one way it affects my writing in a way that can be positive. Although it would be nice to live in a world where I could be like, okay, I could have a show with 20 ensemble members. What would I do with that? I don't know what that looks like, ‘cause I'm pretty practical, to be honest. Especially as a young emerging writer who doesn't have a name yet.
The other thing I wanna say is that when I am creating something, I'm thinking about: What are creative ways or cheap ways that I can start developing the work? I'll use the example of, there are a lot of programs out there that are new (work) development programs, but I know that I have a connection at my alma mater. They don't really have a new works program there, but I was like, hey, is there something that we could do to work it out, and had a meeting about it. There are lots of people who, when they're looking at their musical, are like, “I need a big producer to come along and take it from here”, you know. But as a writer…
Amy: You’re being scrappy and resourceful and using what you've got.
Hayley: (I’m thinking) Who do I know who might be interested in developing this work? And then thinking about what I can provide for them in return. I'm thinking about the ways in which I can offer my services. It's about relationships and symbiosis, like how can I help you and how can you help me?
Amy: It's barter culture is what it is.
Hayley: It’s barter culture!
Amy: Which is so antithetical to the capitalist society we live in, but artists thrive in barter culture, right? I can't tell you the number of people who I've exchanged a voice lesson for like, helping them organize their files or their email, you know?
Hayley: Exactly!
Amy: Just these silly little things that we do where it's like, “I have these skills, you have these skills. How can we help each other?” And I think the more we can incorporate that into new works development, that's a really cool and creative and innovative approach.
Hayley: Yeah, and I've heard the feedback from the producers who I have spoken to, like, “Wow, I love that you're so aware of how hard it is to produce new work. I love that you're already trying to get the ball rolling.” Because from their perspective, they're gonna have to put up so much money and do so much work for this thing that may or may not make them any return on their investment. I'm trying to strategize and think about, “What can I do to make myself more valuable? How can I increase my own value proposition?”
And while I'm not a capitalist – I believe that everyone has inherent value, and also we live in a capitalist society and a lot of these decisions are driven by money. And so knowing that, putting on my business person hat - because as freelancers, we are our own business - how can I increase that value proposition for them so that they then do wanna put up some money later or feel more confident about working with me?
Amy: I think a lot of theatre writers, musical theatre writers in particular, get into this idea that the producer, that the money behind the show has all the power. And I wanna push back on that a bit because, as theatre writers, we own our work. And we own our ideas. I wish that theatre writers, instead of thinking of the producer as the ultimate power, would think of it as more of a partnership, a collaboration. And it comes back to values-driven theater, finding a producing partner who is aligned with your values and the value of your show. It's not hierarchical. All the parties agree that like, this is the value I'm bringing to the table, this is the value you are bringing to the table. Let's work together and figure out how to put on the best show possible.
Hayley: If we can view it as horizontal instead of as a ladder - you’re responsible for coming up with ideas around how we're gonna fund this thing and making sure that we stay organized and driving these kind of logistical aspects. I am responsible for creating the work and making sure that gets done and creating something that we're both excited about.
Amy: Yeah. Well, and the understanding that both have value, and one of those is not inherently more valuable than the other.
Hayley: Yes. This is the challenge with doing something that is a horizontal process in a society that values money over everything. That values individualism and wealth over people and community [and] these things that we're talking about. ‘Cause we're talking about building a community that is horizontal in a space where - the society that is containing it is valuing the job of the producer over the job of the creator.
Amy: This conversation is bringing up a bunch of ideas from a bunch of the different Women & Theatre interviews we've had. In this particular discussion, I'm thinking about what we were talking with Kate [Anderson] and Elyssa [Samsel] recently about, considering that everyone in the room in a collaboration is a genius at their job. And just that community of mutual respect and valuing each other's skills.
In terms of the producibility and the imagination, I'm thinking about our interview with Tidtaya [Sinutoke] and Isabella [Dawis] and talking about their show Half the Sky and how to think about producibility when your set is Mount Everest. (laughs) But like, what a gift to give to your genius collaborators: This scene takes place on the side of a mountain. Go play. Go create something. I trust that you will respectfully interpret the work and figure out a cool, creative way to do it.
Hayley: Well, and also, to bring it back to this big IP conversation, this is why I think I'm less excited by movie adaptations, is because a lot of times, it creates a situation in which people feel like they are burdened by the expectation of the original.
Amy: Audiences come in wanting to see the movie, and it’s like, “Just stay home and rent the movie!”
Hayley: Exactly, right. And then it becomes, oftentimes, a very literal adaptation.
Amy: Mm-hmm. The other Women & Theatre interview that I feel like we must mention is our interview with Jen Wineman. For those who haven't read the interview, please go back and read it in the blog, we'll link it in the episode notes. Jen Wineman, out of college, founded a theatre company with a bunch of her friends. The mission of the theatre company was to produce unproducible works. When Jen was telling us about that, my heart was gonna burst. You have a stage direction that says, “And then the world explodes.” So great. How do we do that? Like, this is our direction. How do we make the world explode on stage? And that's like - these are the fun puzzles that I think are the joy of theatre making, right?
So we're talking about a lot of big ideas that I love…and I hear the producers and more maybe old-school traditional theatre folks in my head being like, “Wow, these ideas are great. How do we pay for them?” So I do wanna talk a little bit about that, yeah?
Hayley: Yeah, let's get into it.
Amy: So things that I think about how we finance these things are…I think there's two pieces of it. There's diversifying revenue sources - in layman's terms, finding new places where the money can come from. And there's budgeting - figuring out perhaps more equitable ways to cut costs while ensuring that everyone is paid what they’re worth.
I wanna start with revenue sources, because I think there's a lot of untapped potential there. One thought that I have is that the arts are important to our society. And I think that government funding should reflect what's important to our society. As theatre makers, it's our job to draw those connections and continue drawing those connections for policy makers. I should say, we are not just coming up with these ideas in isolation. There are some amazing organizations that are working tirelessly to make change in the industry. I think government support for the arts is incredibly important, and there is a lot of money on the table that is not being used appropriately or as effectively as it could be.
I also think - and this is a contentious issue, I realize - but I think that corporate money is another really untapped potential. Especially - I mean, you wanna talk about meeting us where we are at as a society? Corporations and government right now have maybe equal amounts of power, maybe corporations are a little higher on the rung in America…
Hayley: Yeah, I would say that.
Amy: Because we live in an extremely capitalist society. And corporations are people now. Great, so they can invest in the arts, you know? A lot of corporations have charitable giving areas, which is terrific. And I think often the arts gets lost because corporations are focusing on more immediate issues of disaster recovery and addressing things like hunger and income inequality and those are very, very, very important things.
And also, there are so many corporations. And it's a difference to me between reactive philanthropy and proactive philanthropy. And I think both are really important pieces of the puzzle. We need to fix the problems that are existing today, and we also need to be proactive about building a better society for the future. Building the groundwork to ensure that those problems will be eradicated in the future, instead of just having to deal with the same problems over and over. And I think the arts are a great way to change hearts, change minds, and change policies.
Hayley: Mm-hmm. I love that. I do think it's a contentious issue, because corporations will ask what's in it for them. Does Apple all of a sudden want a, like, iPhone song in the middle of our art? No, but for real though. At what cost? I think in theory, it's wonderful, and if there are corporations out there that have a charitable giving section of their budget and want to contribute to the arts, it's kind of defending the power of the arts. It totally relates to the issue in our society about not valuing artists. But thinking about what types of corporations we might wanna approach for that and how we can prove our value proposition…
Amy: Yeah. It's tough because, as a capitalist society, we focus a lot on quantifiable metrics.
Hayley: I was just thinking that.
Amy: The arts… You can’t quantify…
Hayley: It's not really something you can track.
Amy: Yeah, exactly. It's a lot harder to quantify the impact that a piece of theatre had on me or had on society. Sometimes you can point to a specific…
Hayley: Right, like, what's the research of following a bunch of people who saw a piece?
Amy: It would be a really interesting research study! But also, where's the money coming from to fund that research study, right? Because that also costs money and time. But yeah, I think there's a big difference between a corporate sponsorship and charitable giving.
Hayley: Totally.
Amy: And I think there's room for both, for sure. But it also comes back to - to bring it back full circle, it comes back to values alignment. There are so many corporations in the world. So when I'm thinking about my producing work, I'm thinking about, “Okay, who's aligned with the goals of this show? Who's aligned with the values of this show who might have money to spend on it? And who might want to be a part of this because of that values alignment.” This is a show that's aligned with your values. This is the work that we hope it will do. It's doing both in one, right? It's demonstrating the value of art, and it's also demonstrating how that specific project is values-aligned with whoever you're asking for money.
Hayley: There's a Venn diagram here between the values of the business that we're approaching, the values of the theatre company, and then where those things are aligned is an excellent way to move forward in terms of the creation of the thing together.
Amy: Absolutely. I think so. I think that's the future. That's what we're moving toward as a society too. I mean, people talk a lot in entrepreneurship spaces about personal branding and about figuring out who you are and who your people are. Getting together with those people to make magic happen. And that's what we're talking about in theatre.
Hayley: Totally. Yeah. This has been a really, really awesome conversation. I think we've gotten into a lot of the things we wanted to talk about. I know we could talk about this for ages, but I'm wondering if there's anything else that specifically we haven't talked about that you wanna share on this topic ‘cause I know you're so passionate about it.
Amy: I think the note that I want to end on is that this isn't a problem we can solve alone. This is a problem that necessitates having a lot of smart, creative, innovative minds working together to solve.
Hayley: Can I add a diverse perspective to that?
Amy: Sure! Oh my God. Diverse perspectives, please. And especially perspectives and voices that we have not heard from. I think that's critically important, because otherwise, we will just keep doing the same thing again and again. So I just wanna put out to our listeners, to whoever's listening that I am so excited to be a part of that conversation. And if you are also excited to be a part of that conversation and part of this change, please reach out. Let's find each other, and let's continue having these conversations, and that's the way that we're gonna make change in the world.
Hayley: Yeah. And also, if you're a creator out there, find your producers who share your values. Find your people, as opposed to thinking of the producers as like your boss with money, you know what I mean? We're all in the business of making theatre because we wanna make theatre. And so I think that there's some coming together and community work that can be done across different hats or hyphens. Building relationships and not just like, “I wanna get something from you”, or “You have the keys to making my thing happen”. But thinking about people as co-conspirators in changing the world or making the art you wanna make.
Amy: I love that. Well, thank you for listening, co-conspirators.
Hayley: Love you all!
Amy: We are excited to make beautiful art with you and for you. This has been such a cool conversation. I'm glad we had it.
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: And Amy Andrews. If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show is written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
