S4E4: Self-Care
In this episode, Hayley and Amy chat about the hot topic of self-care! What does self-care look like for us? What gets in the way of our self-care, and what can we do to prioritize taking care of ourselves in this busy and often overwhelming world? Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
All About Love by bell hooks
Better Than Before by Gretchen Rubin
Looking for affordable therapy? The Entertainment Community Fund (formerly the Actors Fund) provides mental health services and other social services to anyone in the entertainment industry.
Insight Timer - free meditation app
Yoga with Adriene - free yoga channel on YouTube
Thanks for listening!
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people, and welcome back to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We're your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: And Amy Andrews. Grab a cozy beverage and join us as we talk to women and gender-expansive folks about their experiences at the intersection of womanhood and theatre.
Hayley: On the pod, we cultivate open conversations across identities and professional roles.
Amy: We look for opportunities to support one another in growing our careers.
Hayley: And we pool our collective wisdom to build the equitable theatrical spaces of the future.
(Music)
Hayley: Hey, how are ya?
Amy: I am doing okay. How are you doing today?
Hayley: I'm doing…fine. I was about to say that I was great, and then I decided to be honest. So, hey listeners–
Amy: It's like a solid fine.
Hayley: Yeah, beautiful people. How are you?
Amy: I think I'm also at a solid fine. It's like...a fine day. It is a fine day outside here in New York, I've got to say. It's beautiful.
Hayley: Well…since I'm our resident camp counselor…Amy, let's get started with our roses and thorns.
Amy: My rose for this week is that To the Lighthouse - a show that I'm writing with the great composer, Julie Richardson - just had a reading of part of the show about a month ago. And we have been going through the feedback that we received from the reading. And we've been doing some deep thinking and revisions of the structure of the show. And this week, I feel like we really cracked some things, and we made some big decisions, big swings about the future of the show, and I'm really excited about the direction that it's heading. It's good stuff.
Hayley: That's so exciting! That's the best feeling when you've cracked something open that's been elusive for a while.
Amy: Yeah, for me, it's often like, I'll say a thing or Julie will say a thing and like, I'll just…I'll get goosebumps. I'll be like, “Oh, that makes me feel things.” Like, “That's going in a good direction.” It's very exciting.
Hayley: Yeah, that's the best way to know for me also. The visceral response.
Amy: Yes!
Hayley: Like that…Ooh. Like the goosebumps…or like the gut punch or when you feel something.
Amy: Yeah, listen to your body. Theme of the episode!
Hayley: Yes! Oh my gosh, yes, that totally relates to what we're about to talk about…
Amy: Yes, and I guess sort of speaking of…My thorn this week is that I’m a little sick. My whole family's a little sick. We just did five weeks of my daughter going to summer camp and she was a champ. She went every single day. She did not call out sick once. And now I think we're all just collapsing at the end of that and our bodies are like, “Well, that was a lot.”
So yeah, I'm working through it. But yeah, just [feeling] a little low energy today. So that's my rose and thorn. What are yours, Hayley?
Hayley: My rose is that I got to spend the weekend with my family up north in Muskoka, Ontario, which was lovely. I got to stare at a lake. I love to stare at lakes, if you know me. Any body of water will do, really.
Amy: Lakes are the best.
Hayley: Actually, my spouse Devon calls the lake my other love. Or water in general. Whenever we're in front of a large body of water, Devon’s like, “Oh, it's your other love.”
I digress. So, that was my rose. My thorn is…honestly, the weather wasn't that great, as I was staring at this lake. I was really looking forward to some good tanning-baby-time. It was a lot more like…let's do a puzzle inside and look at the lake, ‘cause it's raining. Which is okay, but I didn't get everything out of my weekend trip that I was hoping to, but that's okay.
Amy: They can't all be perfect.
Hayley: No, and I got to spend some great time with the family and with my spouse.
Amy: …with the lake.
Hayley: With the lake, my love. And those are all beautiful things.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Since we've alluded to it a few times, why don't you tell our beautiful people listening what our topic for today's discussion is?
Amy: Yes, absolutely. You may have seen it on the title of the podcast episode. But today, beautiful people, we are talking about self-care. And I am so excited to have this discussion. I think self-care is so important, and it's unfortunately become a bit of a buzzword that can mean a whole umbrella of things…many of which I personally wouldn't define as self-care.
So I'm really excited to get into that. We're gonna share some of our favorite self-care practices and maybe inspire you all a little bit along the way. So I'm excited about it. Shall we dive in?
Hayley: Yeah, I'm super excited to talk about self-care. I think what you said about it being a buzzword and becoming this sort of consumerist packaged thing is fascinating to me. So let's dive in.
Amy: Yeah, well, so let's start there. Let's start by talking about…What is self-care? How do we want to define it?
Hayley: I think I talked about this on another podcast…so forgive me if I'm harping on bell hooks so much, but I just read All About Love. And she [bell hooks] talks about love being defined as the investment in one's self or another's spiritual growth. And so self-care, for me, is about investing in your own spiritual growth in some way. Investing in your growth in general…I think is self-care. So that's pretty broad. But I do think it sort of covers what I would define as self-care. How about you, Amy? What do you think?
Amy: Yeah, I love that. For me…It's funny, I think my definition of self-care has really become solidified in being a parent. It feels to me like it's all the things that I'm teaching my daughter to do to take care of her body. It's not always the things that feel good.
“I want to eat five desserts tonight, Mommy.” Okay, great. That's going to feel good in the moment. But what do we do that's sustainable to take care of your body and build healthy habits and like…set you up for success, not in the next 10 minutes, but in your whole life.
So I think for me, longevity and sustainability are a big part of self-care. Basically, how are you setting yourself up in the long run to get the things that you want to bring into your life?
Hayley: Yeah. How are you investing in yourself?
Amy: Yeah, the idea of investment is really smart because the self-care decisions that we make – and we'll talk about this – they're usually not instant gratification. And they're not always sexy either…
Hayley: I was gonna say…it's usually the unsexy things, actually, [they’re] not easy by any means, but simple things.
Amy: Yeah, and they're the things that we all sort of know we're supposed to be doing. [Things] like getting enough sleep every night, putting foods in our body that are healthy for our body, taking care of our finances in a way that's gonna support us in our dreams in the future… Those things that, yeah, they're not sexy and they're not instant gratification, But if we can establish these habits, they do set us up to take care of ourselves. I mean, literally take care of ourselves as people in the world.
Hayley: Yeah, totally. The metaphor I want to bring to the table as we start this discussion is the idea of babysitting ourselves. I think I might have gotten this from Laura Girard, she's a fitness influencer and she's very, [all about] like, body neutrality, pro taking care of yourself in long-term sustainable ways. So just to credit her… But I love the idea of babysitting yourself.
As high-achieving people who love what we do… We don't go into theatre because we're doing it to make a lot of money. We go into it because we love it and work is fun to us. We [Many of us] have a tendency to prioritize work over our self-care, over everything really, over our relationships… It's like, an epidemic across theatre people. And so I love this idea of: What would I do if I was babysitting someone? And I'm relating this to your parenting thing, because I think it's connected.
Amy: It's two sides of the same coin.
Hayley: Exactly. So I think about [it] like…“If I were my own babysitter, what would I need to think about?”
Okay, I need to make sure I'm fed. I need to make sure that I am getting to sleep at a reasonable time. I need to make sure that I'm clean. I need to make sure that I'm taking care of my body in a way that makes me feel good, that helps my mood stay up, that makes me energized, that helps me to do all of the hard things I need to do throughout the day.
So I just wanted to introduce that thought. And I think it'll probably come up again as we're talking about skills and strategies and specific things to think about. That's been super life-changing for me to think about, like…How do I be my own babysitter?
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. And very similar to yes, be your own parent.
Hayley: Exactly.
Amy: Totally, yeah.
So I like what you're saying about people who are passionate about what they do, particularly people in theatre, having a hard time prioritizing self-care. I also want to name in this discussion that a lot of the time, women and gender-expansive folks also can struggle with prioritizing self-care.
Women and people with experiences of womanhood… we are often socialized to care for others first and care for ourselves last. And that can make it really hard to set clear boundaries. And it can make it really hard to identify our needs, let alone work to meet them.
Hayley: Yeah, you totally just illuminated that for me. I don't think I thought about it that way. But the way that we're sort of socialized to take care of people… Yeah, of course that would impact our ability to advocate for ourselves, advocate for our needs, and take care of ourselves. A huge part of self-care is actually naming, communicating, and advocating for our needs.
And if we're not even in practice of doing that in environments that are no stakes or very low stakes, like with the people that we love in our everyday lives, where we know that there's like a lot of trust there… When we're constantly coming into these new work environments, and we have to build a good impression and show that we're happy to be there and that we’re excited…And there's this additional pressure of knowing that maybe other folks that look like us don't have that many of these opportunities. There's that scarcity mindset of like, “What if I don't get this opportunity again?”
We have a tendency to sort of like…neglect our needs. So I think it's really interesting, this idea that self-care also is like, how you're showing up and advocating for yourself in spaces and asking for what you need. I think that that's a really important point.
Amy: Yeah. And I mean, I think another piece that's connected is that the discrimination that we and people in our community face… Research shows that that adds to the mental and emotional load that we carry around with us throughout the day.
And so, because we're carrying around this heavy mental and emotional load, that also impacts our needs as far as self-care. We may need more time to clear our brains at the end of the day, right? We may need more sleep sometimes or different food sources to prepare our bodies for the extra loads that we have to carry. So I think that's worth acknowledging too.
Hayley: Yeah, totally. I mean, I was just thinking about, like… When I'm directing a show, for example, I'm very aware of my womanhood. It's a beautiful thing, and it's also a tiring thing. [I feel] this need to sort of be strong and be likable and be approachable. But, not too approachable because I don't want people to like, expect me to mother them. Because that's something that happens sometimes with women in these leadership roles, like…Whoa.
Amy: Yeah, it's a lot. Even just talking about it is a lot.
Hayley: It's a lot. Yeah, I'm just…I’m expressing it because I've had conversations with my spouse or with friends, or I'm sure you and I have talked about it before… You know, I love directing. It's one of my greatest passions in my life. And also, I feel so exhausted. And I'm sure a lot of directors can relate to this, regardless of gender… But, you know, the buck stops with you. And you're carrying the responsibility of the safety of the room and the experience that everyone's having and the product being strong and like, delivering something that's successful for all of the different people that have a stake in it.
And I've thought a lot about how that's very exhausting - in addition to exhilarating and all the beautiful things, obviously. And I hadn't really connected it to my womanhood. But this is totally an additional burden that I'm navigating all the time, whether or not I'm consciously thinking about it.
Amy: Yeah, well, and add on to that, like, all the layers of intersectional identities…
Hayley: Oh yeah, all the intersections.
Amy: And, oh my gosh, we're just exhausted. And we need to take care of ourselves.
(Musical transition)
Amy: So Hayley, I want us to talk about some of our favorite self-care practices. Let's give listeners some ideas and get those brains going. So I mean, I feel like you and I could each go on all day about this. So why don't we start by naming like, our top three for each of us.
Hayley: I love that. Let's talk about it. So, this is gonna be kind of geared towards my intersection of, like, my neurodiverse brain because I'm an anxious person. I have other related things that influence the type of self-care I do for myself, but I'm sure these would be practical for neurotypical people as well. For me, one of the most powerful things I can do to take care of myself is pairing not looking at my phone first thing in the morning with like, doing something else that's more helpful and productive for my brain in lieu of it.
So one of the things that's been the most helpful is establishing a clear morning routine. Rather than reaching for my phone, I'm gonna like, reach for my water bottle, take a sip, and then I get up and I get ready for my morning yoga practice. And this can be like, 5 or 10 minutes if I have no time in the morning, or this can be like 30 minutes or an hour if I'm feeling like I have lots of time and I want to like, have a really juicy self-care morning, then I'll do that.
So that's really powerful for me, because I find if I'm scrolling on my phone first thing in the morning, my focus is so much worse for the rest of the day. And giving myself something to do instead of that has been really powerful, that is like, doing the opposite. So like, focusing my brain, grounding myself in my body, bringing me into the present moment, reminding me to breathe. All of those things, like, just setting myself up for success first thing in the morning. So that's 1-slash-2 combined that I really love.
Another self-care practice that I really enjoy is - I get hyper-fixations on things - specifically work, I'll like, get into these modes where it's really hard for me to remember to stop and eat. So having some freezer meals that are healthy that I've prepared in advance is a life-changing thing. During a time of the month when I have a lot of energy, prepping a bunch of freezer meals that I can literally pop in the oven or I can just like, take out of the fridge is really helpful. Trying to convince my brain that eating is more important than whatever it is that I'm hyper-fixating on right now is really hard for me to do. So having something that is as easy as “Pull it out and do it…” That prevents me from spending money I don't need to spend on takeout or, like, eating food that is less helpful for my body to have energy and like, less healthy for me is really good. And then I can have a lot more energy throughout the day and feel more focused. Because if I don't eat, I'm not gonna be productive.
Amy: Yep.
Hayley: That’s my second one. My third one is… sort of broadly, setting up systems that make sure that I'm doing the recurring tasks that I need to do to take care of myself. So, for me, I'm very in love with my color-coded Google Calendar. If it's not in the calendar, it doesn't exist for me.
Amy: And if it's not color-coded, it should be.
Hayley: Right, like it's just boring and no fun. And also it's harder for my brain to see. So, yes. So something that has really helped me is setting up recurring tasks - like, these two hours every week, I'm doing chores - and I put the list of things in that Google Calendar event, [so] that it's like, “These are the things you're supposed to do.” So that I don't have to come up with a new list that needs to get done every time. It's there.
Also, I don't need to create new time in my calendar for it. If something else comes up in that slot, I can just move the event rather than creating a new event. So I set up the recurring time. And then I move it around based on what my schedule is like that week. But it's always there and it has the things in there. I also do this for things like grocery shopping, for things like working out. I even put my workout routine in the calendar thing. Just so that it's, like, I don't have to think.
My big thing for myself is, I hate nothing more than wasting mental energy on something that I have to do every week. So it's like, “Do it once and then set it and forget it.” And then it can just be there for me as a reference, and I don't have to like, imagine what that list needs to be. The list is there, I just have to do it. So that frees up a lot of mental energy for me to like, do harder things or creative things. I don't want to use creative energy, certainly, on my grocery lists or like, my chore lists or things like that.
So that's been a life changer for me as a neurodiverse person, as a person who needs some extra help in those areas. Just finding ways to systematize my life so that I don't have to think about it is really helpful. So those are my top three. Amy, I'd love to know yours.
Amy: Love that, yes. Side note: I recently finished reading Gretchen Rubin's book, Better Than Before, which is about habit setting, and it's great. And she agrees with you a lot about creating systems that make it so you don't have to think. In reading her book, I learned about myself that, like, that's not necessarily the kind of person that I am. But I think a lot, if not most people, are that kind of person, so like, yes, put those systems in place. They're great.
Hayley: Yeah, it's also worth naming that different people need different things. The two of us here are sharing the things that have been helpful for us. Maybe some people will find my tools useful, and some people will find Amy's tools useful, some people will find all of them useful.
Amy: Right. One of the takeaways is that we want to encourage you, listeners: Find what works for you. Find the things that make your life easier, that set you up for success. And pay attention to what those things are and figure out ways to put more of them into your life.
Hayley: Yeah, I also want to name that your life will change and things are cyclical. For me, I am better and worse at doing these things all the time. Like, some weeks or months or quarters, I'm killing it at this stuff, and then sometimes it's like, really hard. So, just to name, taking care of yourself is really freaking hard and it's these simple unsexy things that work really well, but that doesn't mean that it's easy. Give yourself grace. It's not realistic, it's actually very patriarchal and white supremacist thinking to think that like, every single day is going to look the same and be able to maximize productivity. It's like, not realistic.
Amy: The whole idea of maximizing productivity is a capitalist trope that I'm really trying to like, pare down in my own life. I don't have to do all the things every day. An affirmation that I've been playing around with for a while that I love is “My productivity does not define me.”
Hayley: Good one!
Amy: Yeah, when I first heard that, I knew that it was a good one for me because I had a visceral reaction to it. In the moment when I first heard it, I was like, “What do you mean my productivity does not define me? Of course it does! Like, what else am I good for?” And then I heard myself and was like, “Oh jeez, I guess I have some work to do here.”
Hayley: For the listeners, my jaw just dropped. (laugher) It's so true. Like, I relate to this so much, Amy. Again, it's like, high-achieving people - a lot of people who are listening right now probably experience this too. We get into this idea that the harder we work, the better we are for some reason.
Amy: Yeah, it's, like, connected to our self-worth.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: And…why?
Hayley: And why? We are worth it because we exist. So like, these self-care practices, we're probably going to talk about it and already have in context of like, how much more productive you can be. But also, it's just ultimately to make you feel better. And like, you have value because you exist. It's not all about productivity. It's about a lot of things, you know?
Amy: Absolutely. So I digressed a little bit. My favorite self-care practices. My first one, first and foremost, is boundary setting.
Hayley: Say it again, Amy.
Amy: Setting the boundaries. This is something that I used to be really bad at, just naming it.
Hayley: I actually want to name that like, for Jewish women specifically, many of us probably deal with it.
Amy: You’re not wrong.
Hayley: I feel like it's bold of me to say.
Amy: It's a hot take.
Hayley: I'm sure this is true for lots of other people too. As Jewish women, it's true for us.
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: And I feel like it's true for a lot of other Jewish women, too.
Amy: Yeah. I feel like boundaries mean different things in Jewish culture than in a lot of other cultures, and that informs our lives, for better or worse. But yeah. So boundary setting is by far the biggest one for me. It's something I used to be bad at and have worked really hard at. I'm getting marginally better at it every day, and it's a lifelong journey.
I used to be really bad about like, saying yes to too many things and just totally overloading my schedule - again, in the name of productivity defining my self-worth. And it continues to be a long and hard journey, but I am learning to say no to things. I am learning to take a more realistic view of my calendar and build in - not just like, “Am I capable of fitting this thing into my calendar?” But like, “Do I want to? Is it a priority for me? Is it aligned with my values?”
Hayley: You're saying so many good things. I just want to stop to say, “Do I want to? Do I want to?” You don't have to. I think that this is a big thing. We hear so much in the theatre, “Say yes to everything.” We've debunked that on this podcast a few times, but I'm just gonna say it again.
Amy: Do it again! Do it again!
Hayley: You don't have to say yes to everything. The right “no” is just as important as the yeses. if I may, Amy, just because I'm also very passionate about this…
Amy: You may!
Hayley: I have a system that I go through when I'm evaluating opportunities, because I'm also a recovering “Say yes to everything” girl. So if I may just gently offer this to the listeners and to you…
Amy: Please!
Hayley: So I have this as a phone note, and I keep this around so that when I'm offered something, I go back to it. So when someone offers you an opportunity, first say thank you. Start with thank you. You don't have to think about your response right away. Say thank you. Number two, rather than responding right away, pause. “I will need some time to think this over and evaluate if I have the time and energy to take this on.” You can word that however feels right to you, but something to the effect of, like, “Thanks so much, I will need some time to evaluate this.” And then you're building in room for yourself to actually take the time to sit with yourself.
Step three is ask yourself: Does this opportunity align with my values? Am I excited to take this on? What does my gut say about this? Is this more important than rest or the other things I could be doing with my time? Am I doing this because I genuinely want or need to? Or am I just doing this to please/get the other person to like me? And then, to move on to step four, then you can respond about that opportunity,
Amy: I love that. That's a great system. Yeah, we have a similar system in our house, my husband and I, where we - like, when there's a big thing - any big thing, in any area of our lives that comes up - we will not make a same-day decision about it. We will always sleep on it. It's helpful when you're married, because people tend to respect, like, “Oh, thank you so much. I need to check with my wife. I need to check with my husband.”
Hayley: Whatever the line is, come up with your go-to line.
Amy: And that's the boundary. Yeah.
Hayley: It's just so helpful to have that boundary built in.
Amy: Yeah. For yourself. Like you said, Hayley, making it so you don't have to think about it. There's not even a question of whether I'm going to respond to this right now, because I'm not. Because I know no matter what it is and no matter how strongly I'm feeling about it, I know that the best thing is to give myself time to think about it. That's really important.
Hayley: Yeah. I love that, Amy. Thank you for that.
Amy: So yeah, so boundary setting - number one, always. My other favorite self-care practices. You know, one that really is important to me is a shower. I will take you listeners back about almost six years ago to when I had a newborn and life was chaos, and there was no such thing as “me time” or self-care. Like, it just wasn't a thing. And from when my daughter was born, the one boundary that I set - the only one - was every day, I need a shower.
So, dad or parents or whoever's around, here's a baby. I'm taking 10 minutes, and I'm gonna go take a shower. And those 10 minutes were my lifeline. There was so much going on that was so hard. And to just be able to go in the shower and have warm water wash over me for 10 minutes. Remember that I had a body that was not just like, a milk source for another person.
Hayley: Oh my gosh, remembering you have a body is so important.
Amy/Hayley: It’s so important!
Hayley: Vital.
Amy: Yeah, so for me, personally, showers are a very important piece of my self-care. I want to name that we hear a lot from society about self-care that is like, going to a spa, going to a fancy hair salon, like, spending a lot of money to look pretty. And that is often billed as self-care, particularly for women. And when something is billed to me as a self-care practice, I like to take a step back and look at: Who is benefiting most from this? Am I benefiting most from this because of how amazing I'm going to feel in my body? Or is this company that gets a whole bunch of my money actually the one that's benefiting from this? Are the hair care and skin care product manufacturers that are getting my money - are they benefiting more than I am from this? Because if so, it's probably not self-care. This is not to say that going to a spa or a fancy hair salon can't be self-care. I'm just saying - know what's important to you and know what value you are getting out of the thing.
Hayley: Yes, absolutely. And like, it can sometimes feel really good to like, go get a blowout.
Amy: 100%.
Hayley: It can be self-care.
Amy: It’s not always self-care. Yeah.
Hayley: Again, coming back to your values, which we always, we talk so much about values on this podcast…
Amy: ‘Cause they’re important! Yes!
Hayley: …and it brings me joy, okay? Values are good. I think at some point, we linked the like values exercise.
Amy: We did. We can link it again in the show notes.
Hayley: If you have trouble sort of like naming your core values, or like, when I'm saying, “Check with your values” and you're one of those people who's like, “Huh. Like, I feel like I have a vague sense of that, but I don't know what it is.” It's a really useful tool to know what they are so that you can use it to check in with yourself about it. So, we'll link values exercise in the show notes. I think self-care can look like a lot of things, but knowing what it is for you is the most important thing.
Amy: Yes, 100%. My third favorite self-care practice is going for a walk. That's a good one. Good, solid one for me.
Hayley: You’re never gonna regret going for a walk. That's what I want to say, actually. Yeah.
Amy: Yeah, you know that feeling when you're just like, working and you're in your computer or you're in a project and your brain is just mush, or you're thinking 12 thoughts at the same time and you just can't parse them out? When I get in those spaces, I make myself stop and I will say, “Okay, I need to take half an hour - 10 minutes if I don't have half an hour - and just get outside, even if it's raining. Getting out of my head and into my body - again, reminding myself that I have a body. It inevitably… 1) clears my head so that when I get back, usually I'm more able to focus on whatever problem I was struggling to focus on before. And 2) It just - it's an investment in myself. It sets me up to have a better day and to be in a better mood, so those are my three.
Hayley: I love that. I want to add a bonus one, which is: Go to therapy. That's a great self-care practice. Making time and making space for your mental health in a way that is possible, affordable, and like, accessible for you is so good. Go to therapy, everybody. Like, it's really life-changing.
Amy: Yes, and also acknowledging in this space that therapy is something that is not attainable for everybody. Because of the horrendous thing that we call a healthcare system in this country, therapy is unfortunately a privilege for many. So if you have the privilege, please take advantage of it.
Hayley: It's a way to invest in your mental and spiritual growth.
Amy: We'll link some accessible mental health resources. And ask for what you need. I have found that a lot of therapists, if you ask, they'll offer sliding-scale rates. You know, therapists don't get into it for the money, most of them. They get into it because they want to help people.
Hayley: Yeah.
Amy: So, it's okay to ask for what you need.
Hayley: Totally. And also, if you don't have access to therapy, there are lots of free resources, like meditation and yoga and other things, that you can just do in the comfort of your home that will really help with your mental health.
Amy: We'll link to some of our favorite self-care resources in the show notes, so check those out.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Let's talk a little bit, Hayley, about: What are some of the things, in our experience, that get in the way of self-care? And when we're facing those challenges, how can we protect and prioritize our self-care?
Hayley: Oof, that's such a good and big question. I sort of want to like, put this into two categories for me. There’s sort of like, the systemic things that get in the way of self-care for a lot of people, and then there's sort of like the personal challenges. And they're connected, of course, as with all of this stuff. But I sort of want to dump them into the two buckets.
Amy: Yeah, talk more about that.
Hayley: I think when we talk about what gets in the way of self-care from a systemic perspective - like, not being able to pay my bills because theatre is not paying us enough. We have like, a million different J-O-Bs or day jobs to support ourselves while also trying to build our careers in theatre. That can sometimes get in the way of self-care. I'm sure lots of people who are listening can relate to this: I actually have no time to take care of myself - ‘cause I'm just running from thing to thing to thing to be able to afford to survive and also do the thing that I love to do. So, that's a big thing.
Amy: Right. And again, like, the US healthcare system, literally not being able to go to the doctor when you're sick because you don't have insurance is a challenge that way too many people in this country face. And that's not okay. it needs to be better. US government, please take note.
Hayley: Well, and also for artists, many of us are gig workers. I think a big part of self-care is also financial stability. Taking care of yourself also includes your wallet and taking care of your literal resources.
Amy: Absolutely. When we don't have enough money, it affects our holistic health - physical, mental, spiritual, all of it.
Hayley: Oh, yeah. And also we can't rely on our employers to provide us with benefits, with support, with resources that you would often get if you had a more traditional, like, job-job. Planning for retirement is harder, like, into old age, planning for your health as you get older. So, like, when we talk about what gets in the way of self-care, I think that those are big things.
I think also, systemic inequities can definitely be limiting for a lot of different folks. There are so many issues that prevent people from seeking the care that they need. Or like, even for folks that are seeking the care, not being listened to, not being believed, not being trusted about their own health. The fact that we have to advocate so hard for our own health in this country is huge.
Amy: Yeah.
Hayley: A lot of folks aren't even raised with the idea of like, knowing your body. Like the thing you were talking about earlier, Amy - going for a walk reminds you you have a body. The idea of listening to your body is so hard for some people - like, folks don't know about their own hunger cues, how their sleep is impacting them, don't know how to eat healthy. Like, those resources aren't necessarily provided by the US education system. There's so many problems that, like, trickle down into our health.
Amy: Yeah. Back when I was working in sex education, one of the biggest things I would encounter was clients would come to me and have no idea about the basic anatomy of their bodies, but about, like, their particular body and what they liked or didn't like or wanted or didn't want. And the thing that I said over and over on record was: “You are the expert on your body.” And so many of us are not and don't know how to be. I think that's a big part of self-care that we have to own, is: There is nobody who knows your body better than you do. And so it's really important that you take the time to get to know it and get to know what your body needs and what it responds to and all of that.
Hayley: Yeah, and also I just want to name that that's really hard, because there's so much stigma around bodies in general. Like, the fatphobia and the racism… We could go on about this.
Having named some of those major things that definitely are getting in the way, let's look at our more personal issues that get in the way of self-care. What are those for you, Amy? Like, what do you find gets in the way of your self-care practice?
Amy: The vestigial perfectionism, the vestigial productivity obsession, definitely. Societal pressures, for sure, and internalized societal pressures also. They affect each other. That's the thing about self-care - like, when I am not getting enough sleep, it affects everything. It affects my ability to remind myself to eat well and to make good decisions.
Hayley: Well, because we literally are limiting our brain power!
Amy: Right, exactly.
Hayley: If we can't get enough sleep, then it's like, I can't think, I can't do anything.
Amy: Yeah, yeah. And so, it's always the constant balance of trying to make sure that I'm taking care of all of my self-care needs holistically, and like, taking care of my life in a holistic way. For me, I tend to have a really clear focus on a particular job that I'm doing - like you were saying, getting hyperfixated on a job, or getting hyperfixated even on like meal prep, or getting hyperfixated on - I don't know, could be anything. And then the rest of your life kind of falls off.
Hayley: Everything falls apart?
Amy: Yeah, exactly. So just trying to make sure that I keep that balance. For me, that's a big thing.
Hayley: Yeah. I think for me, it's very similar. Something I want to offer, because you asked a beautiful question along with “What are the challenges?” which is like, “How do we prioritize our self-care?” For instance, when you're in production, when like, your entire life sometimes feels like it is that production, and whether it's you hyperfixating on it, or it's literally like, “If I do not hyperfixate on this, then I will let all these other people down. I need to live up to the expectations, which are astronomical.”
Something that has helped me recently - and I want to credit my very good friend Emma Spitz, she's a fitness professional and she is really good at strategies to help with your self-care - is this idea of like, “What is your bare minimum when things are really hard?” So, in a time when you do have mental space, reflecting and creating, like, “What is my bare minimum list?” And then ideas for how to achieve those things when it's a challenge.
So, for me, I try to do 10 minutes of yoga. If I can't do my full practice, it's like, “Okay, there's no reason that I can't take 10 minutes in my morning to just, like, get on the mat.” And that can look like a yoga practice, or that can mean lying on the yoga mat, breathing, and reminding myself I have a body, you know? Like, it's whatever you can achieve when things are tough. So coming up with a list of what are those bare minimum items?
And then, if you are able to do more, kudos to you. But like, coming up with that system so that it can support you, and then thinking about: How do I set that up for success? So for me, with the 10 minutes of yoga, I have a playlist of yoga videos that are short, so that I can go back to them. I don't have to go searching, it's right there for me when I need something.
Amy: Yeah, I've been finding in my life that it's been very helpful - because as you said, a lot of us work gig to gig - in my family, balancing between my projects and my husband's projects, we live our lives in modules, I think. An approach that I've been taking very recently that has been very helpful is looking at like, okay, what are these sections of my life? Like, I just came off a five-week section where my daughter was in summer camp, and my life looked like it looked for those five weeks. Now, we're in this four-week “between summer camp to the start of the school year,” and that looks very different from the last five weeks looked. And then once the school year starts, I know there's gonna be another five-week chunk in there where my husband is working on a particular project and that has implications for what my life looks like.
So for me, it's been about looking at those bare minimums and tweaking them as needed for what I know is coming up. Like, if you know you have a busy season coming up, then look at that busy season ahead of time and make a plan. I know that these few weeks are gonna be nuts - like, what am I going to do? How am I going to set myself up to make sure that I'm able to prioritize my self-care within the chaos? Maybe I put specific things on my calendar - like, on this day, no matter how busy it is, at this time, I'm gonna go outside for a walk for 20 minutes, you know?
Hayley: And you can put that in your Google Cal if you're a Google Cal girly like me.
Amy: And you can color-code it! I want to go back for a sec because we talked about how we can protect our self-care time from personal challenges that we have more control over. I do want to take just a minute to talk about what we can do to address the systemic challenges as well.
Hayley: Yeah! Oh my gosh, yes. Let's talk about it.
Amy: Yeah. A lot of the time, it feels like we have no power in those things, because they are - like, to a big extent, they're outside of our control. I think there are things that we all can do to address these systemic challenges. For folks who are in leadership positions, you have a lot of power in here. And I know that there are financial ramifications and corporate policies, things that need to be taken into consideration. And like, all respect to that. And also, we can do a lot by naming the changes that we want to see in the world and talking about them and getting lots of people in rooms and collaborating to try to come up with solutions to some of these problems. Often, these self-care-related problems at the systemic level feel too big for any one person to solve, and that's because they are. And that doesn't mean that we don't work toward them, it means that we get a bunch of people together and pool our resources to work toward them.
And then for people who are not in leadership positions at the moment, I encourage you - and I know that this takes energy and this takes time and resources - but like, make your voice heard. Don't be afraid to ask for what you need, whether it's in an individual contract negotiation, or whether it's, you know, joining an advocacy organization that speaks to your needs. Whether it's getting involved in political discussions in your local community or at the state or national level.
Know your values, see what's needed based on your values. Where you see gaps, speak them into the world, and be part of the change. One of our interviewees said that a lesson that she had learned was that if you complain about something three times. It's now on you to take steps toward making it better. Because if it's a problem for you, it's never just a problem for you.
Hayley: Yeah, I think I just want to name, too, some smaller ways that you can advocate for yourself. If this conversation that we're having is making you go, “Oh my gosh, it's so big to like get involved in these big things.” That's one way that you can approach this problem. You can also, like, be the change you want to see in a very local, specific-to-you way. That can look like asking for more time. If you are given a task and it's not realistic for you to get something back without sleeping, you can ask for more time. Sometimes you won't be able to have more time, but you can ask for it. You can say, “I understand that it's ideal to have this done in this time frame. Would it be possible for me to get this back by Friday, by whenever?” You can try to build more space in.
Amy: Ask for what you need, yes.
Hayley: You can also ask for more resources if you don't want to ask for more time, like, “Amazing. Just so you're aware, I have these other things also that I'm trying to manage in this time. This is going to take me X amount of hours. Is there anyone else who can assist with this as well?”
Amy: Yeah. Delegating, for sure.
Hayley: Asking for what the priority is if you have like a million things on your plate. Like, what is the most important thing that needs to get done in the immediate?
Amy: Yeah. Because we're passionate about what we do and because in theatre, we're often working on these very, very short timelines for projects, we do tend to just, like - if we're given a task that feels too big or unachievable in the time or unachievable given our other responsibilities, we tend to just say, “Okay, I'll figure it out. Like, yeah, I'm here. I got this.” I think there are ways to be committed to a project and also name what you need and ask for what you need.
Hayley: Yeah, here's the honest truth. We all know that sometimes this will be met with, “We just need it done.” That might happen, but I would offer that it's a loving act to advocate for what you need, even if the answer is like, “You do just need to figure it out.” That action of saying, “Hey, could I have a little more time for this?” Or like, “How much of a problem would it be if this got done by noon tomorrow instead of nine tomorrow?” I know that it's our desire to be like, the absolute most efficient beings that we can, because time is money and theatre is a very time-sensitive art form, but ask for what you need. It's so powerful.
Talking about remembering that you have a body, it's so spiritually rewarding to be able to advocate for yourself. I can't underline that enough. That's one of the biggest things for me that has changed with prioritizing self-care. Iit's a way of building trust with yourself that will support you in every facet of your life. Guess what? If you have trust with yourself, it means that you're able to make decisions easier. You're able to like, be more creative. You're able to trust that your creative instincts are worthwhile. All of those things will support you in your career and in your everyday life, in your relationships.
Amy: Absolutely. So Hayley, what are your takeaways from this conversation? Can you wrap it up a bit for listeners, please?
Hayley: Yes. I think my main takeaways are - if you don't already know, know your values, know your worth, and like, act in accordance with those things. It will change your life. It will make you feel so much better at work and in your relationships.
Figure out the things that work best for you. Your self-care doesn't have to look like a bubble bath. It doesn't have to look like everyone else's self-care. It can look however it looks to you, and it's totally valid.
Amy: Yeah, I think you said it. So I want to say thank you, Hayley, for having this conversation with me. It lights me up in all the beautiful ways, and I'm glad we're talking about this. I really hope we've provided some new ways for you to think about approaching your self-care.
Hayley: Yeah, go take care of yourself this week. Let us know how you're doing this.
Amy: Please do.
Hayley: I want to know. Let's share our resources here. Let's pool the collective wisdom, as we always talk about here on the podcast. Let's do it, let's help each other out. Because this stuff is hard. It's hard, it's unsexy and it's hard. So let's do it.
Amy: It’s hard, and it’s so important. Let’s help each other out.
Hayley: Yeah. Yes. Before we run, Amy, tell me who your Trailblazer of the Week is.
Amy: So my trailblazer of the week this week is Victoria Dietrichs. Vic is running the RISE program, so we've been working with Vic as a network partner for RISE. So we've been able to get kind of a behind-the-scenes look on the really important work that she is doing with RISE to create a network of many of the advocacy organizations working in theatre. And just kind of create some cross-pollination so we can help each other out. And it is a difficult and thankless and complex job that she's doing. We see how hard she's working and it's just, it's really inspiring. I'm really excited about her vision for RISE. Go Vic, go. Like, keep going. You're doing great.
Hayley: I co-sign this. Go Vic!
Amy: Who's your trailblazer of the week?
Hayley: Yeah, mine is Chapell Roan.
Amy: Yes!
Hayley: if you haven't had a Chapell Roan summer, I'm sorry for you if you haven't. But go check her out if you haven't already listened to her music. I'm sure I'm not illuminating this for anyone, but in case, go. It's great.
The reason I want to highlight Chapell is because I've recently read about her story. She's really having her moment right now, but she's been building this career for the last ten years. And back in, I think it was 2021, she was signed to a major label, and then she was dropped because she wasn't, like, doing enough numbers for them. And she had specifically released Pink Pony Club, which is one of her biggest songs right now. And she was dropped, and then she had to move back to her Missouri hometown and live with her family, and bust her ass, basically, to like, keep doing what she loves. And eventually, released the music separate from that label and has become, like, one of the biggest people in music and in the industry right now.
And I just think it's such a good lesson in perseverance, in resilience, in believing in yourself and knowing that your message and that your art is important to share. I can totally imagine that she felt like a failure after that happened to her, and she just kept going, and look at her now! So Chapell Roan is my trailblazer of the week.
Amy: I love it. Hayley, before we go, I want to hype you up. I want to hype you up today because I am really proud of the open and vulnerable and authentic way you're talking about your neurodiversity.
Hayley: Thank you!
Amy: I'm really proud of you for it. I think it's really beautiful to hear more about that side of how your brain works and I think it's going to be really, really helpful for listeners to hear that perspective. So go you!
Hayley: Thank you! I really appreciate that. My brain works differently than other people, and owning that has been actually very powerful for me, so thank you for recognizing that. I love you. I’m gonna hype you up because I think you provided so much value in this discussion and you led us through it so beautifully. It's such a huge topic that we're covering, and you did such a beautiful job of like, guiding us through and offering so much value and diversity of thought in the way that you're talking about habits and self-care. And like, I just think you're a superwoman for all of the things that you balance and this being one of them. So I think you did great.
Amy: Awww, thanks friend! We're hyping you up too, listeners. You're amazing. Now go take care of yourselves, and we will talk to you soon.
Hayley: Talk to you soon. Bye babes!
Amy: Bye!
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews! If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show was written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
