S4E7: Rachel Klein
In this episode, Hayley and Amy talk with director Rachel Klein about socioeconomic barriers to working in theatre, mentorship as a tool to make theatre work more accessible, the challenges of earning respect as a woman leader, and more. Scroll down for episode notes and transcript!
Episode Notes
Hosts: Hayley Goldenberg and Amy Andrews
Guest: Rachel Klein
Music: Chloe Geller
Episode Resources:
The Trouble with Dead Boyfriends
Esther, Heart of a Queen at the George Theater
Spells of the Sea at the Kennedy Center
Women & Theatre Podcast S2E8: Networking
Guest Bio:
Rachel Klein (she/her) is a New York City-based stage director specializing in new play and musical development. Off-Broadway: The Gospel According to Heather (Theatre 555; starring Katey Sagal); Red Roses, Green Gold (Minetta Lane Theatre/ft. the music of the Grateful Dead); Around the World in 80 Days (The Davenport Theatre); The Anthem (Lynn Redgrave Theatre); The Opposite of Love (Royal Performing Arts Space). Selected NYC: Tink! (NYMF); More Than All the World (Theatre for the New City); Circus of Circus (The House of Yes). Selected Regional: The Suffragist (Gallagher Bluedorn Theatre; starring Nancy Opel), Dead Certain (composer: Air Supply's Graham Russell); 54 the Musical (House of Independents; starring Michaela Jaé Rodriguez and Frankie Grande). Selected workshops and readings: High Priest (Paul Iacono’s Warhol Factory play); Helen (Starring Bonnie Milligan), Medusa: A New Pop Opera. Charity: Ms. Klein directed the charity roast of Michael Musto raising funds for the Callen Lorde Community Health Center, featuring Rosie O'Donnell, Bruce Vilanch, and Jinkx Monsoon. Ms. Klein is a proud member of SDC, founding member of Iconoclast Theatre Collective, guest teaching artist at Fordham University, serves on the New Musical Screening Committee for NAMT, directed Double, Double for Bite-Sized Broadway (ft. Richard Kind), and is the Director/Showrunner of the audio series The World to Come (ft. Adrienne Barbeau). Up next: Esther, Heart of a Queen (The George Theatre, Houston); Spells of the Sea (The Kennedy Center, DC).
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Episode Transcript
(Music)
Hayley: Hello beautiful people, and welcome back to the Women & Theatre Podcast! We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews. Grab a cozy beverage and join us as we talk to women and gender-expansive folks about their experiences at the intersection of womanhood and theatre.
Hayley: On the pod, we cultivate open conversations across identities and professional roles…
Amy: We look for opportunities to support one another in growing our careers…
Hayley: And we pool our collective wisdom to build the equitable theatrical spaces of the future.
(Music)
Hayley: Hello, hello beautiful people. Amy, how are you?
Amy: Hi! I'm doing okay today. it's a bit of a manic day, to be honest. I'm running around a lot.
Hayley: (sings) It’s just another manic Tuesday…
Amy: It is a manic Tuesday today. Yeah, accurate. Facts. Yeah, but I'm doing okay. I'm really psyched to be here. I'm psyched to see you, and I'm excited to meet Rachel and have this conversation.
Hayley: Yeah, it’s gonna be great.
Amy: So how are you doing today?
Hayley: I'm doing okay. Should we get into our roses and thorns?
Amy: Yeah, we should.
Hayley: My rose is that I've just met so many wonderful new people in the theatre industry, ‘cause I got to attend NAMT last week and support my pals Julia Sonya Koyfman and Skye Cone Ivey and Frankie Dailey and Veronica and abs, and… the list goes on. Got to support my pals at NAMT, which is always a delight to see all the new work, but I got to meet so many new people. Folks who are excited to innovate in musical theatre and make it a more equitable space and make really good exciting work. So I'm just feeling really inspired by that, and it's exciting to feel the balls rolling and feel like I'm in a community and not just shouting into a void about things. That's my rose.
And my thorn is just that I haven't really had a chance to catch up on sleep yet. This fall has just been unrelenting, and I would say that in a good way. But I'm tired, and I haven't really had a chance to fully catch up. Like, every night this week, I'm doing something theatrically related, which is a blessing and I'm grateful. And also, I'm tired and I want to go to bed. But that's me. How about you? What are your roses and thorns this week?
Amy: Oh, my goodness. Yeah, my rose is… I feel the same. You and I, together and separately, have been in a lot of really exciting places these last couple of weeks and months. Yeah, I'm excited about the relationships that I'm building and that we collectively are building for this project with folks in the industry. I'm really inspired by the new theatre that I've gotten to see recently. It's really lighting me up. I'm feeling really good about all that. I think you hit the nail on the head when you said that it's great to feel a part of a community. And I have been feeling that these last weeks as well.
My thorn is balance. As we've discussed many times on this program, I am a woman of many hats. We both are women of many hats.
Hayley: The chapeaus are endless.
Amy: Correct! And sometimes it's like a light, fun, flirty hat, and sometimes it's like a heavy, pulling-you-down-into-the-muck hat. And there are a couple of my hats in particular that have been really heavy this last week or two, and I'm feeling that weight. And I'm at a point where I am excited to take those hats off for a minute and try on other funner, lighter hats. That's where I'm at.
Hayley: What a nice hat metaphor. (laughter) Thank you for that.
I'm really excited to shift gears and talk to Rachel. So Rachel Klein is a theatre director who is a mentor of mine and I really look up to. She's just a badass, and she - amongst many of the people we are lucky enough to talk to - really walks the walk when it comes to supporting other women. She's somebody who loves to share the wealth and bring a number of people up with her, and I just really respect that, and I'm excited to hear her perspective on things.
Amy: Yes, absolutely. I'm very excited.
(Music)
Hayley: Rachel Klein is a New York City-based stage director specializing in new play and musical development. Her Off-Broadway credits include: The Gospel According to Heather at Theatre 555, starring Katey Sagal; Red Roses, Green Gold at Minetta Lane Theatre, featuring the music of the Grateful Dead; Around the World in 80 Days at The Davenport Theatre; The Anthem at the Lynn Redgrave Theatre; The Opposite of Love at the Royal Performing Arts Space. Selected New York City credits include: Tink! at New York Musical Festival; More Than All the World, Theatre for the New City; Circus of Circus, The House of Yes. And selected regional credits include: The Suffragist, Gallagher Bluedorn Theatre, starring Nancy Opel), Dead Certain, composer: Air Supply's Graham Russell; 54 the Musical, House of Independents, starring Michaela Jaé Rodriguez and Frankie Grande. Selected workshops and readings include: High Priest, Paul Iacono’s Warhol Factory play; Helen, starring Bonnie Milligan; Medusa: A New Pop Opera. For charity, Ms. Klein has directed the charity roast of Michael Musto, raising funds for the Callen Lorde Community Health Center, featuring Rosie O'Donnell, Bruce Vilanch, and Jinkx Monsoon. Ms. Klein is also a proud member of SDC, founding member of Iconoclast Theatre Collective, and a guest teaching artist at Fordham University. She serves on the New Musical Screening Committee for NAMT, directed Double, Double for Bite-Sized Broadway (featuring Richard Kind), and is the Director/Showrunner of the audio series The World to Come (featuring Adrienne Barbeau). Most recently, her credits include Esther, Heart of a Queen at the George Theatre, Houston and Spells of the Sea at The Kennedy Center in DC.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: Hello, beautiful people. We are here with Rachel Klein. Rachel, welcome to Women & Theatre!
Rachel: Hello, Hayley and Amy! I'm so excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me on.
Hayley: Oh my gosh, we're thrilled to have you. Before we dive in, can you share your pronouns and tell us a little bit about what you do in theatrical spaces?
Rachel: Yes, I'm Rachel Klein. My pronouns are she/her, and I'm primarily a director and sometimes a director-choreographer. I also am a co-producer of my company, the Iconoclast Theatre Collective. That is a theatre space that is shared with Erik Ransom and Andy Peterson, two musical theatre writers that I often work with.
Hayley: Fabulous.
Amy: Fantastic. Yay! Rachel, what is something, anything, that is inspiring you right now?
Rachel: Well, it's Halloween season. I mean, for me, it's Halloween season year round. Let's be real. (laughter) But right now, I am finding a lot of inspiration watching vintage horror films.
I just rewatched the original Nightmare on Elm Street. Before all the sequels take the Freddy Krueger archetype into kind of a camp territory, the first one is actually like a straight-up, legit horror movie, and there's some beautiful practical effects in it that really are stagecraft - like, today would be done in CGI. There's a scene where Freddie's coming through the wall over our heroine's bed, and like, his hands and face pop through. And you can see that it's just done with spandex - you know, stretched onto a canvas - and he's pushing through and the lighting effects, but it's almost, like, operatic.
Hayley: Yeah, it's cool to see those practical effects used when you go back to older stuff and like, thinking about how that can apply to theatre.
Rachel: Yeah, exactly, exactly. So that has been a joy to be appreciating the season. We are like, two days out from Halloween now, as we are speaking.
Amy: Happy Halloween, listeners!
Hayley: Happy Halloween, everybody.
Rachel: Happy Halloween!
Hayley: Amazing. So Rachel, we're trying out a new segment this season where we're doing a flash round of questions. These are just fun, “speak before you think” kind of questions. So, the first is, if you were an animal, what animal would you be?
Rachel: Tortoise.
Hayley: Love! Okay.
Amy: What is your weirdest hobby?
Rachel: Oh my gosh, I have so many weird ones. My husband and I collect vintage cards, like, trading cards…
Hayley: Oh, cool!
Amy: That’s fun.
Rachel: Yeah, we have a whole collection of them, and they're separated into multiple decks from ‘80s and ‘90s, and then ‘70s and before, which encapsulates things from old Hollywood and, like, silent film era and stuff.
Hayley: Fabulous. I love that. Do you have a quote or mantra that is speaking to you right now?
Rachel: Just breathe.
Amy: Oh, what a good one for the moment.
Hayley: Always good. Always good, yup.
Rachel: Again, listeners, we're one week before the election.
Hayley: Just breathe indeed, Rachel.
Amy: Just breathe. Rachel, here's a little one. What's your favorite musical?
Rachel: Oh my gosh, that changes all the time. Cabaret is one that speaks to me immensely. Some of the musicals that got me into musical theatre were Hedwig and the Angry Inch, Rocky Horror, Little Shop of Horrors, all of that kind of fun genre, expressive, B-movie culture stuff. But the one that made me feel like, “Oh, I could really have a voice even on a corporate level,” I would say, is The Lion King. Just the visual effects of that. I saw that when I was in college and it like, knocked the wind out of me.
Hayley: Yeah. The Julie Taymor puppetry and stuff. Yeah, cool. What's your song of the moment, Rachel?
Rachel: Ooh. Oh my gosh, there's so many. I mean, I guess Stevie Nicks, Edge of Seventeen, is one.
Hayley: So good. It never goes out of style. Yep. Yep. That's great. I love that answer. Well, thanks for playing along with us. Now that we got through our flash round, could you just share with our listeners, how did you come to theatre in the first place and your creative work?
Rachel: Well, I knew I wanted to create worlds, over-active imagination as a child, etc… I'm from Albuquerque, New Mexico. I have no idea what the theatre community is like [there] in current form, but, you know, growing up there, there was like a community theatre and, you know, sometimes we'd get - like, the non-Eq tours would come and play at the college. It's not like, a big theatre town.
So my first realizing what I wanted to do and the inspiration for who I would become came from watching a film. It was Edward Scissorhands. Watching that contrast - and then reading about it afterwards, you know, that Tim Burton paid the people that lived in that community to paint their houses. So all of that is just like real, all that pastel paint. And then the haunted mansion up on the hill. You know, like, this is the evil and this is the cookie cutter suburbia.
And you know, I was a kid, so I didn't realize what I was actually looking at was this love letter to old-school Americana. And watching what the director's influences were on their own upbringing, and how they repurposed that into what at the time was a contemporary lens. So everything was kind of that, like, kitschy ‘50s and ‘60s with the women with the beehive hairdos and the aprons and baking the cakes for Edward and, like, the ambrosia salad - you know, all of that ridiculous detail super spoke to me. And I knew that I wanted to do that, but I didn't know what the “that” was until later.
Hayley: And so what then? Was there a moment or was there like, a first thing that made you realize, “Oh, that's what this is”?
Rachel: When I started doing high school theatre, like drama club. And what attracted me to that, honestly, is because at the particular school I went to, drama club was for the weirdos. I was like, “Oh, the kids with the green hair and the leopard print pants, they're going to drama club. That's where I belong, period.” And it was where I belonged. And so like, obviously you act and everything, and I never liked it. I always wanted to self-direct. I was that kid that I would hate to work with now. But it's because I wanted…you know, I had a vision…
Hayley: You were a director and you didn't know yet.
Rachel: Yeah, and I didn't know.
Hayley: Amazing. I love hearing about that.
Amy: Yeah. Where did you go from high school? How did you get from high school to where you are today?
Rachel: I went to Columbia College in Chicago, which at the time was one of the only two colleges in the country that had an undergraduate concentration in directing. The other one at the time was Carnegie Mellon, which, you know, for financial purposes was not on the table, for me anyway. But also, it was conservatory, whereas Columbia College was more like… The way I would describe it is kind of like a trade school, but for artists. So all of our teachers were working actors and directors in Chicago, and they would come in and impart their knowledge.
I now know that was all their side hustle, like, my education was their side hustle. But like, they were all working professionals. And that really - you know, it teaches you in a different way. There was no handholding, you know. I hear from my friends that had more of a conservatory training about this kind of mentorship, and I'm like, oh my gosh, I in truth would have loved that at the time. But also, I think not having it made me tough enough to come to New York right after graduating with no contacts here, you know, having not come to school here, and just like, you know, working at a bar.
Hayley: Made it happen, yeah.
Rachel: Yeah, like working at a bar downtown and this theatre company came in after their shows every night, and I just started chatting them up. And the artistic director of the company, Akia, she and I became kind of buds, you know, from serving her drinks. And she gave me my first opportunity to direct a one-act in a black box in the Village. And like, it kind of all spiraled from there. But you know, I don't know that I would have had that courage and that, like, “Okay, I can do this” …had I come from a place where I was truly nurtured, if that makes sense.
Hayley: Yeah, totally. Well, and that grit that you develop from that experience.
Amy: Yeah, that’ll take you far.
Hayley: For sure.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: You were talking about the socioeconomic barriers to getting into the theatre industry. Carnegie Mellon wasn't an option for you and isn't for a lot of people, it certainly wouldn't have been for me. I know that you're super passionate about this topic. And so I’d just love to hear any thoughts you have about accessibility and the barriers that you've had to navigate in order to get to where you are now.
Rachel: Absolutely. I mean, it's - you know, it's tough out there for us all. But just like anything, it's less tough for those who don't have to pay rent. It's less tough for those who don't have to work day jobs. And for me personally, I came up at a different time. I know things are changing - slower than we'd all like, but they are changing, which is good.
Hayley: Yeah, the needle is moving. It might not be at the speed that we wish.
Rachel: Exactly. But like, I came up during the era of “All internships are unpaid internships.” I was interviewing for directing fellowships to work with Broadway luminaries for free. For free. For like, 60-hour work weeks unpaid. And I remember at the time being like - you know, again, I didn't have that conservatory training, I didn't have the like, “Okay, this is how you talk to people.” You know, so I'm just like this scrappy kid, like, “Excuse me, no. Okay, I can do that, but I'm going to need my Friday and Saturdays off at 4:00 so I can get downtown to cocktail waitress, because I have to pay rent.”
And that attitude that I had was very shocking to people at the time. Now I'm seeing with the younger artists that I work with, which - for me, mentorship is deeply important, and I love to uplift young brilliant people as much as I can and to make opportunities accessible.
Hayley: Yeah. I just want to take a moment to say, Rachel's been a wonderful mentor to me, and I'm just so grateful for all of the opportunities you've been able to offer to me. I can co-sign from experience, Rachel is like, a big “walk the walk,” not just “talk the talk” kind of person. So I really appreciate you.
Rachel: Thank you for that, Hayley, that means a lot. Hayley was an assistant director for me on a fabulous reading that we did last year of a beautiful musical based on the Euripides play Helen. And those readings are so fast, in and out, and there's just so much organizational stuff that needs to go into it, and I couldn't have done it without you. So right back at you, mama.
Hayley: I appreciate that.
Rachel: But anyway - you know, it's like trying to make things accessible for people. Because some gigs pay proper - you know, I've had some experiences where my assistant directors and associate directors are offered a reasonable wage, and sometimes they're not. And I remember that.
I'll give cred where cred's due - I had one mentor - when I first came to New York, I wrote letters, and I heard back from John Gould Rubin, who at the time was the co-artistic director of LAByrinth Theater Company. And he is the only person who I was in communication with at that time, trying to scrounge my way up into professional theatre, and was like, “Great, come in when you can. I'm sorry, the producers can't pay you for this particular one.” It was a show, not with LAByrinth, it was an independent show that he was directing. And he flat-out made it accessible for me.
So I was there maybe 60, 70% of the time, and I cleared some days for tech. And he took good care of me, you know, if we’d go out for drinks afterwards, he'd like, make sure that I would at least get a round covered. ‘Cause he knew I was young and poor and all of that good stuff. But most importantly, let me have the opportunity that - even though, unfortunately, there was no financial whatever - there was the ability that I could still work my job. And, you know, the reason is because he came up the same way. So he saw that, and he felt that it was unfair to penalize people for not being able to just live and exist for free.
That had a huge impact on me. And I learned a lot from him. He is an actor's director. He was an actor first and still is an actor, and coming up in that world and just watching the nuance of the way he speaks to actors… It was such a beautiful learning experience for me as a young artist that I never would have had had that door been closed, like so many others were closed, because you just can't afford to be there.
Hayley: It's not talked about as much, that on-the-job training that's a part of the training experience that you need to work in theatre, and how to make that accessible for more people. Like you said, it's changing now, but I think it's something that still is always worthy to be talking about.
Amy: Yeah.
Rachel: Yeah, it's a tricky thing because theatre companies, especially if you're looking at not-for-profit theatre companies, they don't have the money to pay properly. So then, in those spaces, at least in my experience, I have met a lot of people in those spaces who come from situations where they are just simply comfortable and they can take these jobs. Like, even these admin jobs, you know, you make $30,000 a year for full-time work.
Hayley: Yeah, for like - it ends up being more than 40 hours a week. Yeah, it's a lot.
Rachel: I don't know what the solution is, because I think the United States having like, a national theatre program and everything funded, like a lot of spaces in Europe have, is probably not on the table. Would be great, powers that be.
Hayley: It would be awesome.
Amy: It’d be great. Yeah, I’d be into that.
Hayley: Anyone with the purse strings around here listening - if you're here with us, you know…
Amy: Hey, government decision makers who are listening to Women & Theatre - get on that! (laughter)
Hayley: Right, right.
Rachel: But I mean, it is a real business. Being an artist is not a hobby. This is another side of it. You know, I've done a lot of these short gigs where people from other industries who happen to have a ton of money, who have done very well for themselves - you know, there's been a lawyer a neuroscientist, dermatologist - you know, there's been a lot of these people who are very passionate about theatre and they bring on these projects. And I just have noticed that they get to skip the line. They don't have to fight to climb the mountain, because they can fly their helicopter to the top of the mountain. You know what I mean?
And so these are things that I've been navigating my entire time as a theatre artist. And I don't want to sound negative, by any means, because I absolutely love what I do, and I love the troubleshooting, so to speak, to figure out how to continue forward and continue making the best work I can.
Hayley: I love it. Well, thank you for sharing all of that.
Amy: Yes. It's a topic that we could just talk about all day. I know.
Rachel: Sure, I’m sure.
Amy: Yeah, because there's so much to unpack. There really is. But I want to hear more about you and what you're working on.
Rachel: Yes, I'm about to go into rehearsals for a reading. It is called The Trouble with Dead Boyfriends. It's written by Annie Pulsipher and Alex Petti, a fabulous writing duo. It's a rock musical - but rock in the best way. It's not like, a rock musical and it's kind of a musical but with a little rock. I would say it's the opposite. It's certainly like a rock-and-roll show.
Hayley: Heavy on the rock, light on the musical.
Rachel: Exactly, exactly. But then in the musical story - musical storytelling, though, it's like, really gorgeous. It's about three young women, teenagers, who are engaging in a little bit of casual witchcraft. And they do a love spell to try to get themselves boyfriends for high school so that they can have the perfect prom date. The spell goes awry, so instead of undying love, they get undead love. And, so we see, one by one, they end up with a zombie, a vampire, and a ghost, respectively. But each of these guys are archetypes for toxic masculinity.
So it's really smart, but it's also really fun. It's like, actual feminism but also super funny and super silly at times. So it doesn't hit you over the head with any of its messaging, so it's kind of… I'd say, one of the more well-balanced shows in that regard that I've ever read, and I'm super excited to be working on it.
Hayley: That's awesome.
Amy: Sounds terrific, yeah.
Hayley: I can't wait to see it and to see where it goes. It sounds amazing. Rachel, could you tell us about your creative mission as an artist?
Rachel: I'm really focused on telling stories that mean something to me, where there is some kind of undercurrent that hits you to the core. You know, for me, it's good storytelling, but where there's something that for me as an artist, I can draw something personal out of it. So for example, the show I just mentioned, The Trouble with Dead Boyfriends… I mean, who hasn't been there - you know, dealing with different kinds of archetypes of bad humans in your life and wanting to, you know, exorcise the demons. Literally in this case, but you know, figuratively in other spaces.
And then I just did two regional shows back-to-back. I did a Queen Esther dance musical out at the George Theater in Houston, which is a giant, also feminist-forward storytelling of Queen Esther from the Torah. The show was gorgeous and featured Sharna Burgess from Dancing with the Stars, for those who are fans. She is a beautiful dancer, and there's gorgeous choreography in it done by Chase Brock, who is incredible.
This show, for many reasons, was important to me, as A) yes, the story of Purim, but B) just the generalized idea of the archetype of Esther - of, you know, a person who was forced to go into hiding so that they could then achieve the goal of being royal. So it's like a literal gilded cage. You're a queen, but you don't - you still don't have a lot of choices. And then, against all odds, makes a sacrifice and it all works out in the end. Hooray. But like, it's a big deal what she has to do and the kind of agency and courage that it takes to put herself in the position that she was in.
So even though this was a fun show with tons of beautiful dance spectacle and visual narrative, completely sung through and danced through, no spoken text at all - that gave us the opportunity to really like, play with the form of storytelling, which was great. But also at the heart of it - you know, at the heart of it, it wasn't just a bunch of fabulous spectacle, even though there was so much fabulous spectacle. At the heart of it, there was this, you know, female empowerment and overcoming your biggest fears kind of messaging, which was super crucial for me to connect to that material.
And then I just got back from Washington, DC, directing a piece called Spells of the Sea at the Kennedy Center. And that piece is written by two young women writers, Gwenny Govea and Anna Pickett, who are just so smart and so sensitive and so nuanced. And the piece is a coming-of-age story about a teenage girl who finds out her father is terminally ill and has to go on a magical quest into the sea - you know, kind of Into the Woods-style - procuring some items so that she can then save his life. And so there's a lot of messaging about loss. And it's, you know, this was in a TYA space. So for many kids who saw it, it might be one of the first times that they had to confront or deal with storytelling that really touched on that. But it's done with humor and levity and magic and joy and carves in the motifs of found family…
Hayley: Oh, I love that.
Rachel: And that loss is terrible, but you still can find a community of people that will love you and support you and that you can be there for each other, and it's just really, it was really lovely.
Amy: Sounds lovely. That's great.
(Musical transition)
Amy: Let's talk about womanhood. Can you tell us a bit about womanhood and what it means for you and how it has or has not fit into your identity and your theatrical work?
Rachel: When I first got here - again, you know, sort of tying back to the socioeconomic, conversation as well - I didn't realize that people that have these big, beautiful loft apartments, like, didn't pay for them. You know, I didn't know. I was like, “Wow.”
Hayley: “Wow. How'd you do that? How'd you pull that off?”
Rachel: I’m like, “Where are you cocktail waitressing? I want to work there!”
(laughter)
Amy: Can you imagine paying for one of those apartments with a cocktail waitress salary?
Hayley: Oh my gosh.
Rachel: Yeah, totally. I mean, it finally hit me in the face when I like, took an elevator up to a party and it just opened right onto the floor at this place in Soho. And I was like, “Okay.”
Hayley: There's no way.
Rachel: And this was a girl who was a hostess at the restaurant, so she wasn't even working for tips, and I was like, “Mmhmm, okay.”
Amy: Yeah, uh huh.
Rachel: So that kind of snuck up on me, and I was like, “Wow,” and I felt so naive. The whole being a “woman director” versus being a “director” also snuck up on me. Because it didn't even occur to me - and I don't know why or how - I just kept losing gigs to dudes. And often, when I would go in to interview - back in the olden pre-pandemic days where all interviews were in person and you'd be like, waiting in a lobby - and yeah, I'd often be the only woman in the room even being considered. And, you know, it's very much like being Smurfette at the Colony of Smurfs. There's just… can only be one lady.
Amy: (laughs) Wow, what a reference.
Hayley: It's very much like being Smurfette at the Colony of Smurfs. I love it.
Amy: Somehow everyone was blue, it was weird.
Rachel: Yeah, so strange. And all of a sudden I was a blonde. I don't know, weird. But it wasn't until I started going to this group that - we used to meet in person, it was a group called Directors Discuss, and it started out - like, the first meeting, there was probably at least 20 people, but it kind of got boiled down to about eight of us that then would meet often, and then eventually just meet for a holiday party every December. But that was our community since, you know, pandemic and whatnot, like, a lot of people have moved away, and, you know, they're not New York-based anymore.
But talking then and like, really getting into the nitty gritty of our experiences as directors. And it wasn't until I started speaking to other women directors when I was like, “Oh. Oh my gosh, like this is a real problem, that there - it's not that there are fewer of us. There's just fewer of us getting called in for opportunities.” And we're, you know, in it to this day. And I don't want to like - I don't want to say I'm not grateful, but you know, I'm often told at meetings, at interviews, that like, “We're only considering women directors for this.” And I'm like, “Yay, supporting women!” But also, you're also kind of telling me I wouldn't be here if you were willing to consider men.
Hayley: Right! Mm hmm.
Rachel: And that's something that constantly comes up. And then, once you have the job though, once you have the gig and you're in the room, how we comport ourselves. You know, I'm sure we've all seen those memes about how women have to write business emails versus how men do.
Hayley: With the exclamation points and everything, yeah.
Rachel: And I feel like that's the same thing for how we conduct ourselves in the room. Men are often more straightforward, or if a man takes the time to stop and think. You know, I remember going back to John, when he was directing, because he was very thoughtful… Sometimes he would pause for like, 30 seconds, and we would just see the gears going in his head. And then he'd be like, “Mm, okay, I might have a solution. Let's try this.” And people would just be like, “Yes, let's try it. It's great.”
But I myself - you know, depending on which company of actors I'm working with, some are down for the ride, some are not - but sometimes, I will have people jump on me. If I don't answer right away, if I don't know the answer right away, if I have to think about it, then I don't know what I'm doing. And then people are trying to, like, swoop in and let the whole room know that. And it's weird because, as you know, I mean, directors are not usually in the room together. But when I talk to my male director friends, this is not a problem. And when I talk to my female director friends, this is a constant problem.
Hayley: Mm hmm. Yeah, totally. And also that pressure that you feel on yourself too, of like, “Oh gosh, I have to rush my thoughts.” That's maybe more of an early-career thing. Like, for me, I experience that where I'll…
Rachel: No, it never goes away, Hayley. Get ready.
Hayley: Yeah, it's just so much pressure, you know. And that men don't kind of have to face the same thing most of the time, where - you know, of course we have to think, we're managing a whole thing. There's a lot going on.
Rachel: Yeah. As a woman director, I do also feel that, you know, you have to earn their respect. You have to earn their trust. You have to earn all of that. Whereas with men, it's often just given when they walk in the room because…
Hayley: Right. “Oh, that’s the director!”
Rachel: Because it's latent. Because it's latent - you know, I don't think any of these people that I've ever had this kind of a situation with would ever at the forefront of their mind say, “I don't respect women leadership.” They would never think that that they even do. It's just, it's ingrained in us. It's ingrained in us.
Hayley: Like the unconscious bias, yeah. Also like that mothering thing, that's something I've experienced too, because I think it comes with being a woman.
Amy: Hayley, can you expand a little bit on the mothering thing?
Hayley: Yes. You know, I often find an expectation, as a woman director, to be sort of like, maternal in my approach with people. And when I go into a more strong or intense or business mode in the room, I notice a shift in the body language or a shift in the mentality. Again, not from everyone, this isn't like, a blanket statement, but it's a general thing that comes up. Rachel, I'd love to hear if this is something you've experienced as well.
Rachel: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. When you're in straight-up business mode, which - I always try to be, but I also am playful. I have a sense of humor, I like to have fun…
Hayley: We all contain multitudes, right?
Rachel: Yeah. But sometimes that makes people feel like, “Okay, now Rachel's my bestie. So if I'm late, oh no… So I could take a little bit of advantage.” So I've had to really mitigate that within myself. Which - you know, it's hard because I love actors. They're brilliant artists, and I like to be friendly with my actors. I'm like, “Can't we all just meet in a space and just be creative grownups together?”
Amy: Can’t we??
Hayley: Yeah, for sure.
(Musical transition)
Hayley: I'm curious about: What are some changes that you want to see in the theatre industry? Like, if you could wave your Rachel Klein black and shimmery magic wand, what would you change?
Rachel: Hmm. It would be black and shimmery, thank you for knowing that. Yes.
More spaces would be one. When I moved to New York in 2005, there were so many beautiful spaces that just slowly, one by one, keep disappearing. Things keep going away, but it's not the like, flow of the city as it should be, like it is with restaurants and bars, where things go away but then new things come. It's like, things go away and then they're gone.
So more spaces and more accessible spaces, more spaces where it's not like, “Okay, great. Now we have this beautiful state-of-the-art space, you can rent it for $50,000 and have a run of show.” You know, figuring out a way to just make it possible for artists to make art, period. And to get that work seen. ‘Cause there's so much value in a city like New York, where there's so many human beings from all over the globe with so many different perspectives to share. And to really be able to have venues for that, and to have audiences for that - to have people want to come out and see new works being developed, and what the cool new art house stuff is - you know, reclaiming New York City for the weirdos, I think, is like - I would love to see that.
Amy: Yes! What a project. That's great. Yeah.
Hayley: Love it.
Amy: Cool! Rachel, I wanted to ask you about what you are most proud of in your work and in your life so far.
Rachel: Oh my gosh. You know, I'm proud of my relationships. I feel that that's deeply integral to my work and to myself as a human. You know, I've been with my husband now - we've been together 16 years, and that's the most important…
Hayley: Congratulations!
Amy: Yeah!
Rachel: Thanks! He's great. We lift each other up, and we have a very symbiotic relationship. He's an artist as well. He is a writer and also works in TV and film, and we have a support system for one another, emotionally speaking. And I think that that that's absolutely crucial, and relationships are hard and ours just doesn't feel hard. So I feel really grateful for that.
I also - outside of my theatrical work, one of my biggest passions is travel - global travel - and expanding my knowledge, culturally, of this giant world that we live in. And that has been something I'm deeply proud of, becoming more adventurous in doing that. And also being savvy and figuring out ways to do it inexpensively. I'm going to Southeast Asia for six weeks in December and January, and that's going to be super exciting. We're going to seven different countries.
Amy: Wow! That sounds incredible.
Rachel: That requires so much research to figure out, “Okay, what are the best neighborhoods? Where are the places? Where is the underground art in every city we go to?” ‘Cause there's always something cool happening somewhere and finding what that is, that's deeply important. It’s easier to find the underground art scene in like, Oaxaca and in Istanbul, than it is in New York sometimes, you know?
Hayley: There you go. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for being here with us, Rachel. Before we wrap up, Amy and I have added in a Trailblazer of the Week segment, which is basically an opportunity for us to uplift the people who inspire us. It can be someone in your immediate circle or someone who you admire from afar. So I want to know who your Trailblazer of the Week is.
Rachel: I'm gonna go with Grace Jones.
Amy: Nice! Oh, good one.
Rachel: I love her! I love her. Talk about reclaiming art for the weird. What an inspiring person. I just read her autobiography - she's from Jamaica, from a small town, and then came to New York City to become an avant garde singer and dancer and artist. And just… All of her work is so awesome, and just, her look is so cool. I mean, icon, stunning. She's in her 60s and she still tours, and part of her performance is that she changes costumes between every single song.
And I'm just like, “Yes! Yes, Grace, get it. Get it, Grace.” I think she also just crosses so many different barriers of like, different versions of art, between performance and visual. And I think she's just… she's incredible, and she's an inspiration to me, for sure.
Hayley: Amazing. Amy, who's your Trailblazer of the Week?
Amy: Yeah, my Trailblazer of the Week this week is… so, back story: Hayley and I had the immense pleasure last night of going to this very cool concert at the Town Hall here in New York that was a benefit concert for Kamala Harris’ campaign. And it was a performance of a new song cycle by Carmel Dean called Well Behaved Women, as in the Laurel Thatcher [Ulrich] quote, “Well behaved women rarely make history.”
And the concert was incredible. It was this star-studded cast. It was directed by the incomparable Schele Williams. The orchestrations were absolutely fabulous, and they were by Lynn Shankel. Amazing women that really inspire us. It was such an inspirational night of beautiful, really creative, really interesting art for a cause that's really, really, really important to both of us. And so, yeah, I would say, Carmel Dean and the entire cast and crew and creative team and everyone behind the Well Behaved Women concert, those are my Trailblazers of the Week.
Rachel: Fabulous.
Hayley: I’m gonna go with Kamala. I'm gonna go for Kamala, because I just have to put all my energy toward supporting her, and I can't even imagine the pressure that she is feeling this week. So, yeah. I feel like I don't need to say more. Kamala Harris is my Trailblazer of the Week.
Well, thank you so much, Rachel, for being with us here today. We're so grateful for your time. Could you share where listeners can find you on the internet?
Rachel: Yes. I have my website, which is www.rachelkleindirector.com. Also on Instagram as @rachelklein.theofficial.
Hayley: Yay! Thanks for being here.
Rachel: Thank you both for everything. And this was super fun!
(Musical transition)
Hayley: That was a great interview! I love Rachel. And hearing from her…
Amy: That was terrific.
Hayley: And hearing just her passion… It was really exciting to hear what's the why behind what she's doing and hearing her talk about her experiences and breaking in as somebody who didn't have tons of money, like, coming in. I think that was all very inspiring to hear.
Amy: Yeah, absolutely. I always find it really exciting to talk to people who are sort of at that mid-career spot. Yeah, where they are still going, you know? They've still got a lot of room to grow in their careers - which, like, don't we all! But yeah, I think when we talk to people who are, you know, multi-Broadway… like, it's incredibly inspiring, and it can also feel really far away. And talking to people who are mid-career, I feel like it gives us glimpses of our next steps in a way that I find really, really helpful.
Hayley: Yeah, in that, like, approachable way where it's like, it's not so far. Like, it's hard to conceptualize being Rachel Chavkin accepting a Tony award. You know what I mean?
Amy: Yeah! And even, even timeline-wise, just talking to people who have come up in the field in the last 10 to 15 years is very different from talking to people who really - their time coming up in the field was multi decades ago, because the world has changed so much. It feels like people who've come up more recently have stories to share that are very applicable and relevant to what we personally are going through. So, that was a really delightful interview.
Hayley: I love it.
Amy: Thank you for bringing Rachel to us.
Hayley: Yeah, and I just want to hype you up because I know you were having a rough day, and so to see you kind of light up with the interview… It always is so fun for me to see you - like, without fail, every time we talk to somebody, you kind of like grow three inches, just out of joy.
Amy: Because I love them! I love them, and I love these conversations. They're the best part of my whole life.
Hayley: And I love that. Your enthusiasm [for] it is so evident, and your joy is evident, and it's one of the many things I love about you.
Amy: Aw, thank you. Oh my gosh, Hayley, I want to hype you up this week, because… Listeners, we were at the NAMT conference last week, and when I tell you that Hayley Goldenberg is the queen of networking… Watching her work a room is just the most impressive thing because… I mean, I encourage you all to go back and listen to our networking episode, because there's a lot of gems in there, but to see Hayley Goldenberg live all those lessons out in real time - it was a masterclass in networking, and I felt so fortunate to be there with you and to have you set that shining example for how to walk into a scary room and make friends. So thank you.
Hayley: Thank you. Oh, that means so much to me. I really try to live the things that I'm preaching on this podcast, and I have to say thank you, listeners, and thank you, Amy, because I think if it wasn't for Women & Theatre, I don't think I would have that kind of confidence. But we're talking all the time about these ideas and these things that, like, make us better at what we do. And I think for me, I really had those core rules or lessons or guiding light things that we talked about, of like, this isn't transactional, you're here to make friends. You know, be interested in other people, ask them about them. Like, ask them what lights them up.
I had so many conversations that were inspiring and that were genuinely exciting to me because I was asking them about what they're passionate about. And - as you know from listening to this podcast, I'm sure - that's what lights me up, is hearing people talk about what's passionate about them. It’s one of the things that lights me up anyways, and I know it does you too.
Amy: Yeah, it does!
Hayley: So thank you for that. Thank you for that. I will take that as a feather in my cap. So my words for you this week, listeners, are: You go make some friends that you didn’t know you could this week.
Amy: Make some friends, listeners!
Hayley: Make some friends. We love you. We'll talk to you soon. Have a great week. Bye!
(Music)
Hayley: Join us on December 11th at 10 a. m. for our virtual co-working space.
Amy: We're having a party!
Hayley: Join us on December 12th at 5 pm for the first annual Women & Theatre Holiday Networking Event.
Amy: Fabulous location to be announced soon.
Hayley: Come ready to have fun, make friends, and ring in the holiday season with the Women & Theatre community.
(Music)
Hayley: Thank you for listening to the Women & Theatre Podcast. We’re your hosts, Hayley Goldenberg…
Amy: …and Amy Andrews! If you like what you heard, subscribe and give us a 5-star review wherever you listen.
Hayley: You can also follow us on social @womenandtheatreproject to make sure you never miss an episode.
Amy: The music for this show was written by talented Women & Theatre community member Chloe Geller.
Hayley: Thanks again for listening, everyone. See you next time!
Amy: Bye!
